Confused about alt-1 vs alt-2 and what is a basement
In a city with such a housing shortage, things are changing about English basements. “The city will launch a pilot program aimed at creating safe, legal basement apartments in East New York amidst the five borough’s dire affordable housing crisis.
The New York City Council voted to create a pilot program in Brooklyn’s Community Board 5 Wednesday that would help landlords transform certain illegal basement apartments into habitable, affordable units. Council member Brad Lander introduced the legislation, which is backed by Mayor Bill de Blasio and co-sponsored by nine other Council members, as a case study to eventually expand the program across the city.
“Converting basement units is an important way to address New York City’s affordability crisis,” Lander said during Wednesday’s stated City Council hearing. “It will also enable us to learn useful lessons that I hope will make it possible to smartly expand this program to neighborhoods in the future.” From Curbe dNY, Feb 13,2019 https://ny.curbed.com/2019/2/13/18223705/east-new-york-affordable-housing-basement-cellar-apartments
jess.rios
in Dept. of Buildings (DOB) 6 years ago
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6 replies
aleafb | 6 years and 1 month ago
Hi everyone,
We are in the middle of designing some renovations and are very confused about a few issues.
It’s a row house with two floors and what we are pretty sure is a basement. The kitchens & baths are on the top two floors, the previous owners had their bedroom in the basement.
There is no C of O, as it turns out, but the D of B lists it as a two family with no specifics on layout. The HPD iCard has it as a two family with a cellar.
Here are my questions.
1. The basement seems to be 50% above grade but it is close. An architect who came by said she thought it was ok but definitely on the edge. How do you determine this for certain? And what is counted as the grade? Because the sidewalk is a little lower than the ground next to the house – the concrete slab in front of the house is higher than the sidewalk.
2. Does the i-card matter? If we determine it is a legal basement and we want to put an apartment there (instead of the top floor) do we need an alt-1 or an alt-2? We are talking to architects and contractors but hearing different things.
We initially bought the house with the intention of using it as a single family, but then thought financially it might be better to put a little kitchen and bath in the basement and keep it as a two family. But this is getting very complicated…
Which leads me to my third question-
If we decide to go back the one family idea, I know we need an alt-1 but is that a less complicated/ demanding process than if we are flipping the layout of the house? Or same difference?
cate | 6 years and 1 month ago
So you have three stories including the garden floor and nothing below the garden floor? AFAIK to be legal living space, the garden floor must be 50 percent or more above grade as measured from the curb. (A surveyor may be able to determine this, and there are other requirements as well including ceiling height, egress, etc.) If it’s already a two-family, you don’t need to file to use it as a single family. You can remove kitchens and bathrooms, or you can turn a kitchen into, say, a laundry room if you want, as long as you’re not significantly relocating or adding fixtures. If you simply want to, say, install a kitchen or bath where there isn’t one now, you need an Alt-2 (as long as you aren’t changing occupancy or egress). If you want to flip the configuration of the house and make it a duplex over a floor through, things get a little murkier. One question is whether the city has any record showing a different configuration. If you do it legally, I believe this is an Alt-2, as long as you aren’t changing egress. Be advised, many circa 1900 two-families consisting of tw o floor through units often have an English basement in which the first room is some kind of legal living space (sometimes a parlor, sometimes a summer kitchen, etc.), the rear is more like a cellar, and in the rear is usually a toilet as well as steps and a door to the outside. There are many of these in Bushwick and Ridgewood. In south Crown Heights specifically, these basements are typically just below grade and never legal living space. Also, keep in mind the more permits are required, the more it adds to costs, and increases the risk the DOB will require conformance to later codes (staircase dimensions, handicapped access, sprinklers throughout). One piece of advice is to find an architect who specializes in your area and has done a lot of renovations in the same types of houses. Let us know what you find and good luck.
jcarch | 6 years and 1 month ago
Basement or cellar determination is measured from the mean curb height. Cate’s correct that you’ll need a surveyor to determine these points (and to put on their survey the top of the finished floor in the basement/cellar. DOB requires that these data points be on a signed/sealed survey, your architect can’t just put them on his/her drawings.
Mean curb height is the mid-point between the curb elevation at each side of the lot.
Inside, you need to determine the elevation of the mid-point of the clear headroom in the cellar. If the interior mid-point is above the mean curb level, you’ve got a basement. If it’s below the mean curb level, it’s a cellar.
You should be able to file a change from 2 family to 1 family as an Alt2. Flipping the duplex to different floors will likely mean an Alt1, as you’re changing egress from the apartments.
Assume that either way you’ll need to sprinkler the building. With an Alt2, you can argue it’s not required, but we’ve had DOB just insist on in regardless, and it’s generally not worth spending months fighting with them that they’r e wrong, as they’re the judge and jury in the disagreement.
Surprised your architect isn’t able to tell you all this.
aleafb | 6 years and 1 month ago
Thank you both!
JCarch, we are still looking for an architect. These are questions have come up in conversations we’ve had with architects, contractors, and from our own research but no one has really dug into the specifics yet. However, even the architect and contractor we did a walkthrough at the house weren’t 100% positive about the basement. Both thought it was 50% above grade, but it’s close. It does have over 7′ ceilings.
We did get a survey before we bought and that says it is a basement, but I wasn’t sure that the DoB goes by that. I am just nervous about it because i had never heard of the i-card before and yesterday I learned our house does have one, from 1938, which says it is 2 floors and a cellar. So I didn’t know if that takes precedent or if the 50% still applied.
I actually wouldn’t be surprised to learn it is the kind of English basement cate mentioned because it seems to go deeper in the back, slightly.
It’s interesting, I called the DoB and asked about doing a reconfiguration and the woman thought that as long as we called it and “interior renova tion” instead of a “gut renovation” it would not require an alt-1. However, I’m not entirely sure I believe her… But based on some things I’ve recently learned regarding tax implications for alt-1 renovations, I really want to avoid that at almost all cost.
jcarch | 6 years ago
It’s possible that a plan examiner will see a survey that labels the floor as a ‘basement’ and accept that. But it’s also possible that they will want to see the curb/basement elevations, and see a section clearly showing that it’s actually a basement. Have the surveyor determine the elevations, and make sure now whether it’s a cellar or basement. You don’t want to spend $ and time drawing up plans and filing, only to then find out it’s a cellar.
chemosphere | 6 years ago
The city’s laws in this case are unnecessarily restrictive – this is exactly the kind of situation which is being made legal in the East New York basement pilot program. I believe instead of 50% above grade it requires 2 feet above grade, which would almost certainly make this one a basement and not a cellar. NYC is way behind many cities in this. Just stayed in a legal apartment in London that was 100% below grade (and had great light).
It’s possible if you wait a few years they might spread the ENY pilot city-wide…