raising ceiling into cockloft
http://cdn.brownstoner.com/51c5b1efa0d91-.jpg
Hi all – My youngest (of 3) children has the short end of the stick in our townhouse, sleeping in the smallest 7’x10′ room that has worked for him as a small child but is now tight. There is a good 2-plus feet of height in the cockloft between the ceiling of this bedroom and the roof beams, so we’d like to raise the ceiling in order to build a loft bed (supported from the walls/ceiling) and free up floor space for a desk and a lot of built-in shelves/storage. I am hoping to do this myself and with a good handyman/carpenter I have used before, and would appreciate some advice from the community on whether I am planning this right or missing some dangerous pitfalls. As far as I can ascertain, the job will require 1) taking down the existing sheetrock ceiling; 2) removing the sheetrock on the wall to the left of the bed in the photo; 3) supporting the existing ceiling beams on that wall; 4) cutting into the ceiling beams; 5) extending the wall up to the roof beams; 6) framing/installing new sheetrock ceiling; 7) building loft bed platform, supported off the walls and/or roof beams. I do not believe the existing ceiling beams are supporting any load, but are just supporting the existing sheetrock ceiling; I don’t want to take any chances however and would appreciate advice on steps 3-5 above in particular.
CGDad
in Construction 11 years and 10 months ago
14
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14 replies
Brownstone Home Inspection | 1 month ago
Cate, i stayed away from this for several reasons. I will get to this later.
cate | 1 month ago
An engineer and permits will be required, and an architect desirable. It will be expensive.
BobMarvin | 1 month ago
This is a good example of the interesting questions that used to appear on the Forum. I wonder if the OP is still with us? It would be interesting to get an answer. I don’t know anything about the subject, but wonder if partially eliminating the cockloft would cause ventilation problems.
torreblanco | 1 month ago
hey. I wonder if the poster got any resolution on this? I’m in the same boat. Not really interested in doing a loft I just want higher ceilings and I want to expose those beams. I’ve cut a probe and looked in there. The roof choice are pocketed into the brick party wall so at least roof loads seem to be not an issue with taking this down but my structural engineer isn’t sure if whether the lateral bracing being removed on the sides would be a thing. If anything you could just put new support beams perpendicular with the existing roof joists to replace that lateral support?The dad who posted this, let me know if you got any resolution!
my name is Evan, could you send me a message torreblanco@gmail.com?
bowl-of-dicks | 11 years and 10 months ago
Any old twin loft bed/desk unit from Ikea would do the trick without having to mess w the ceiling height. I know of a high school student living in the exact same space and she makes it work. Presumably this is the tiny room above the entrance hallway?
Bond | 11 years and 10 months ago
So here’s the problem that is the root of so many debates on this forum. Do you try to do the right thing and permit, or do you do what 80% of the population does and do it on the sly. As Bruce points out, if you permit it, then you are looking at some pretty drastic retro-fitting. Then if you do it on the sly, how do you know that it’s getting done correctly since you have to rely on a contractor and the system that has been put in place to prevent un-safe building practices has been circumvented. If you call in a structural engineer, he or she is not going to give you anything in writing on a non-permitted job, so do you spend the money for what is basically informal advice? When new homeowners question why something was done without a permit, this is why. Bottom line when all is said and done? Your wall isn’t load bearing and even if you got the ceiling down and saw that it was, with just a roof over it, it’s a very easy job for a competent contractor. I still say go for it. I’m actually a big proponent of code, but for something as simple as this job, permittiing or calling in a structural engineer just doesn’t make sense to me. Of course if a neighbor dimes you out to DOB, you may regret this advice.
brucef | 11 years and 10 months ago
Dylan, Your idea is just as unapproveable as the OP’s. For free I can tell you what the structural engineer will tell you. Present code does not allow the support via existing joists – period. So Steel from masonry to masonry, or steel up from footing in cellar. I personally disagree with this draconian notion, but them’s the facts. You would be allowed new steel c-joists across the whole building, with the opening for the small room “headed out” with double “boxed” header, but expect 10″ 10 gauge joists depending on the overall width of your house. Lotsa mess, lotsa bucks, lots of delay in approvals.
dylan621 | 11 years and 10 months ago
How about moving the wall to make it wider instead of expanding vertically? We moved the wall between our bedroom and my son’s bedroom about 18 inches and it made a big difference in his room.
brokelin | 11 years and 10 months ago
Interesting project. But if it is all to gain room for your son, you can do a lot in these rooms with furniture options that would be a lot less costly (and less messy) and leave your roof-ventilating and room-insulating cockloft in place. There are furniture piece murphy beds that open sideways (long end of bed against wall, not short end as per usual) that fit in these room (I’d had a few of the 6-7 foot wide brownstone rooms, so I get how small they are, but find them also really versatile). I’ve also placed a full/double sized bed in one, in the center of the room with the head against a long wall, with room to walk past the bed at the foot (in a 7′ wide one) that left a lot of room – but your son may be too tall (or grow to be) for a regular length bed. You could put a narrower, extra long bed along the long wall, and increase storage options with built-ins to the ceiling on either side of the windows, connected by one in front of the window that functions as a storage window seat. I’ve put an ikea pine loft bed (not sure they sell that one anymore) in one, which was tall enough for someone 5’5″ tall to walk under, and left generous room above the loft, but I’m guessing from the height of your window that the ceiling in this room may be lower than mine, and not leave enough room above the loft. I’d look into a lower loft, with the long side of the bed against the wall, not one tall enough to walk under, or have a desk under, but tall enough to provide a plethora of storage cabinets underneath for everything a son might have and need to store. If you go for opening the ceiling, good luk!
BSDOD | 11 years and 10 months ago
Sounds like something I would consider in a few years…please post how it all turns out.
CGDad | 11 years and 10 months ago
I am not inclined to bring in a structural engineer as I am pretty confident there is nothing load bearing here. Here is a picture of my cockloft …(paging Anthony Weiner…my wife would blush if she knew I were posting photos of my cockloft on the Internet)… There is about 4 inches of blown-in insulation sitting on top of the ceiling beams to which the drywall ceiling is affixed; the space between the insulation and the bottom of the roof beams (pictured in the foreground) is just under 2 feet. Bond, think it is enough to leave just 2-3 inches of space for circulation above a new (insulated) drywall ceiling? I believe when I installed the blown-in insulation they put in a couple of vents. I believe you are right that the wall to the left of the bed in my son’s room is not a support wall, and looking in to the cockloft, it is clear it does not extend all the way up to the roof. I am going to have to extend some framing to push that wall up to the roof (and probably attach it to the roof beams) and then extend the wall higher to put in new joists to hold the new drywall ceiling. Would appreciate any tips/suggestions from trades people on the best way to affix the new ceiling joists to that higher wall, once I extend it up.
http://cdn.brownstoner.com/51c60b6c82413-processed-loft1.jpg
nycdesigner | 11 years and 10 months ago
For a quick consult like this, I’ve never paid over $600\. “Thousands” is only needed if the problem is extensive. This is a quick and dirty one point question.
Bond | 11 years and 10 months ago
With all due respect to NYCDesigner, I would not hire a structural engineer. Unless you can see the actual beams by looking through the gap that usually exists at the roof hatch, no one will be able to tell you with 100 percent certainty if the beams in question are load bearing. So you’ll have to pay to have the ceiling removed. Then any contracter with half a clue and tell you and you won’t have to spend several thousand dollars on a structural engineer. If you can see the ceiling joists in question, the same thing applies, why pay the extra money? I can say with a high degree of certainty based on experience that the ceiling joists are not load bearing, and the wall is a stiffening wall. Usually the wall will extend up to the roof and the ledger board for the ceiling will be scabbed onto the wall. Could I be wrong? Of course, but I’m sure most of the experienced tradespeople on this forum would agree based on their own experiences. Potential problems I can see are that the cockloft is there to provide ventilation. If you remove that space by sheetrocking the roof beams without providing for a new way to vent, you will shorten the life span of your roofing material. There are ways around this, and it’s less of a problem with the newer roofing materials, but you should still take it into consideration. You can also end up with a very, very hot room. The other potential problem is that you may have old gas lines running through the ceiling. Usually on the top floor the lights were sconces so they’re in the walls, but I have seen gas lines in the ceiling, and I have run across old gas lines that originally supplied lighting that were still active. If you want a level ceiling you may not end up with quite as much height as you think since the roof will slope towards one end, but you’re only talking a few inches difference. You’ll also be looking at a very messy job since most of the ceilings have a layer of almost microscopic dust that seems to get everywhere and based on the fact that your house is old enough to have a cockloft, it will almost certainly have lead paint as well. Good luck if you decide to take it on, I for one say go for it.
nycdesigner | 11 years and 10 months ago
Hire a structural engineer to assess your ideas in person. No one on the internet will be able to tell you with surety what is or isn’t load bearing. If it is loadbearing, you will be required to permit this and have a licensed and insured contractor perform the work. That is for liability’s sake.