Basement brick "fire wall"?
Renovating a four-story brick house in Brooklyn. When the engineer who filed our renovation looked at the building, he remarked that the brick wall down the middle of the basement was “fire brick”, not a load-bearing wall. When we removed a cellar partition in the same location, we found a bunch of ticky-tacky columns and 4×4 beams holding up brick in the basement floor above.The joists seem to be continuous between the party walls, and don’t seem to be resting on the 4x4s (there’s air between them). They seem to have replaced brick piers and arches. The engineer thinks we need to fix this situation, but is cagey as to whether this is bearing the load of the floor above, or just the brick. He’s recommending a large steel beam and new columns with footings. Has anybody run into a similar situation? Do you have a brick firewall in the middle of your basement (and not on the three floors above)?
rocketship
in Cellar 13 years and 10 months ago
5
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5 replies
Goatcrapp | 13 years and 10 months ago
sidenote – I’m no engineer…. but how thick should the joists be to support freestanding with no center, or offset-center load bearing wall? I have 2×12 spaced every 14-16″ and was told by our contractor it would “probably” be fine – but we put headers with buried supports along any wall we opened up more than a doorway (2-3 joists) width, just in case. ( i don’t like “probably” – lol) – the engineer favored this approach, but when asked directly, said they would have “probably” been fine as well – but his job is to eliminate probablies. I was also told 2×10 is more standard – they were surprised by the 2×12.
Goatcrapp | 13 years and 10 months ago
*edit – forgot to mention – we had a brick firewall in addition to footers and other supports for the main beam. Ours was literally just a firewall – this was torn down and replaced (to code at the time) with a smaller cinderblock (sand filled) room containing the (smaller) boiler, when it was replaced a while back.
Goatcrapp | 13 years and 10 months ago
If the joists go brick to brick – you should be okay, but i would still put a header just in case. YOUR home might be in good condition, but the home next you on either side, might not. Brick to brick joists exter a SIDEWAYS force as well as a downward one. The houses settling with eachother might be why you now have space… does it look like they pulled away from the supports, or that they really were never supported by those 4×4? Also – you’re supporting the weight of the roof all the way down to the cellar, and the snow that piles up on it can be heavy. a 20ft wide, brick-to-brick joisted gut should have a header and buried supports, especially the lower you go. I don’t know that your situation calls for a steel beam the length of the building (very costly, and overkill)- you can do toggled 12ft headers instead, and likely be fine. one thing i will caution – make sure it’s brick to brick to at least 2 joists from the staircase. Staircases remove your brick to brick support, and the walls/supports underneath those support the staircases all the way up.
slopemope | 13 years and 10 months ago
is it possible that the engineer’s assessment of the beam is independent of the fire partition’s existence / removal? we have a 20′ wide house and have the beam / columns in the english basement. no firebrick partitions. i would of course love to remove them but all the houses around us have the same thing, these are circa 1900-1910\. i did live in another brick late 1800’s (17′ wide) that was gutted and it did have a sub-basement firewall, but no beam. however i believe all-new beams were installed in that gut. honestly i’d be nervous to go against the engineer on their advice.
greenmountain | 13 years and 10 months ago
I see bits and pieces of this little wall removed from upper floors and the basement or cellar, all the time. Here an open floor plan, where there used to be studs, no problem. There an arch, where the plumber removed some bricks to run gas pipes for new apartments, no problem. No problem, no problem, no problem. After all, the joists extend from one side of the house to the other, and they are way bigger and stronger than the flimsy sticks you see in new houses. The problem comes when the remaining other supporting elements are also compromised. Fire, rot from water, insects, damage to the next building, an undermined wall. But, your building is in good shape, you don’t really need those columns or arches, yet.