Home purchase, work permits, extension and certificate of occupancy
If it’s a good deal, and the only issues are minor work without a permit, I would not worry for a retroactive call from a neighbor. However it is a good idea if you have your architect/expediter review it.
jayhey
in Brownstoner Renovation 11 years and 3 months ago
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9 replies
thejbp | 11 years and 4 months ago
Hello: I am in contract to purchase a home in Windsor Terrace, Brookyln, although we have yet to close. The home was built in 1910 and there is no CoO (although I was told that there are no CoOs for homes built before the 1930s). There has been work on the home which was done without permits (ie., kitchen extension, backyard deck, basement bathroom). We obtained a mortgage and the bank company did not bring up these issues. Similarly, the title search did not uncover any problems. However, I am worried about this. Specifically: 1) Am I at risk buying a home with renovations for which there are no permits? My lawyer tells me there is a small risk (i.e., someone complains about me and the DoB comes in and inspects and makes me tear the extenion and deck down), but how likely is this? 2) I want to renovate the home. I want to change the back deck and cut down some trees, and I also want to add to the extension. Is there a problem that the prior work had no permits? Should the work that I am planning to do also be without permits? My broker tells me that most work in Brooklyn, even these days, is done without permits, but I am not sure. If I do it with permits, will the DoB force me to take down the other work that was previously done? 3) Should I worry that there is no CoO? 4) Should I have an expiditor/architect come in before the close to evaluate these issues? Please give me some advice. I feel that the broker has a vested intereset in getting the deal done and my lawyer is just telling me all the risks. But what is the reality of this situation? Thank you so much
greenmountain | 11 years and 4 months ago
Reality is even more tangled and messy. I understand your exposure as a home buyer, soon to be a home owner. But what about the people who work on your home? Permits are linked to worker protections, but the system is dysfunctional. How far do you think a Home Improvement Contractor would get if they always decline work, unless home owners hire architects and file permits? Contractors who “pull” permits are responsible for workers’ comp and taxes on everybody who gets paid for anything. Home owners generally don’t want to pay, don’t expect to pay, and don’t in fact pay unless contractors pass on some or all of the expenses, and that would be shockingly expensive. Even with permits, fraud is easy and common. Self deception too. Independent contractors, mythical. Should I compete against contractors who deal in cash to evade payroll taxes and commit insurance fraud? Should I pay a low percentage of my client’s money to cash their check, so I can pay everybody in cash, never passing any of it through a bank account? Penalties are severe. Is it worth the risk? Should I pay a much higher percentage (of payroll) to follow the law? How much higher? At what point is it just too expensive for a home owner to hire a contractor who follows the law concerning building permits, code, taxes, workers’ comp insurance? As my auditor at the NYC Dept of Labor put it: “everybody in your industry is cheating.”
BSDOD | 11 years and 4 months ago
I think everyone who owns a 100+ year old house is at some risk of engaging permitted work and having a can of worms opened upon final inspection. Very few homes built at the turn of the century have a C of O, I can’t remember the cut off…perhaps the 1930’s. in the end, it’s always a good idea to bring in a trained eye for such an important purchase, but this will ultimately come down to your appetite for risk. Old homes are not problem or risk free.
Augustiner | 11 years and 4 months ago
@thejbp if you have no C of O and do renovation and a neighbour calls 311 on you, it´s a big problem. @Greenmountain the city plays a crucial part in this. The DOB process is slow and unpredictable. The hurdle is very high, and it can get very expensive. I did everything by the book, I had no choice. I can just recommend to anyone: make it a 2 family. With 3 family and more complying with fire codes will cost you close to easily 70.000 more than a 2\. In a twist of absurdity (I thought I was done) I had to put in a Siamese connection in front of my house last week. Now I have sprinklers throughout with new 3″ water main, fire retardant floors and walls, 2 hour fire rated hallway walls and doors, a vented skylight and on top of that a hydrant in front. Yes fire safety is great and codes are necessary. But seriousely, what´s the point if I am the only house on the block.
Putnamdenizen | 11 years and 4 months ago
The external expansion work is the most problematic. DOB definitely does fine and demand correction (demolition and/or repair) of unpermitted desks and additions. If you wanted to add to the addition your would probably be best off presenting both the old and new work as all new. The problem is that if it was unpermitted the addition may very well not conform to zoning requirements about side courts, minimum distances to rear of property, etc. I think the days of just tacking on another room w/o permits in Brooklyn have passed. Internal renovations? Well, that’s another matter… I’d be interested to hear the best way of getting a house reclassified (no c of o, but a 3 family in department of finance and hpd database) from 3 to 2 family when it seems to have been used as 2 family for a long time.
daveinbedstuy | 11 years and 4 months ago
The fact that there is no C of O has absolutely nothing to do with any work, permitted or not. Yes, 99% of homes in Brooklynn have unpermitted work. Probably 80% or so have decks that do not meet code. Never let the DOB in if they come knocking. The complaints will not turn into actual violations unless they can inspect them. Doing unpermitted work nowadays is more risky than it was in years back but not everywhere…really depends upon the scope of the work and your neighbors. I never had a problem, even having my deck built (it meets all codes). Yes, an expeditor (Scott Schnall is the best) can navigate through all these issues if you decide to do some major work that requires permits. But, if you do permitted work on the rear of the bulding an dthere’s a deck or other structure that doesn’t meet code you will likely run into an issue upon final inspection. YOU WILL NOT FIND ANOTHER HOUSE TO BUY THAT DOES NOT HAVE SOME UNPERMITTED WORK DONE. Be happy you are finding one without violations and, I think it’s an asset to not have a Cof O bercause many homes with C of Os don’r comply but then they don’t get mortgages either
jumping | 11 years and 4 months ago
My house is also in Windsor Terrace and I thought for the longest time that I had no C of O. I was poking around and looking up every house on the block and found my house to be included on the C of O of the first in the row! “301-317 .. st” was listed on 301’s entry even though my entry says no C of O. Our houses are identical and built at the same time. Maybe you have one? No one seemed to care but me in the entire buying process. I was also worried about some changes made to my house, but after lots of talks with architects, the advice was if it was to be legalized- what Putnamdenizen said- it would be making everything “new”. DIBS is right about all these homes having crazy pasts too. The broker is probably telling you how lucky you are that someone is letting you pay a million bucks for their house! Your broker will tell you anything to make this deal and the lawyer will try to scare the pants off you. They are not your friends and after you close- you will never see them again. Go with your gut. How much risk can you take?
jill11222 | 11 years and 4 months ago
I would NOT lose out on a house because of these issues. You are going to find something wacky with every house. I have been in your shoes. Your architect and expediter will help you through the renovation process and all advise the best way to handle DOB permitting and work around any existing issues. Regardless of past work, I would suggest you get permits this time around. Neighbors are getting savvy to permits, especially where decks and extensions are concerned and I wouldn’t risk it. Congrats and Good luck!
Roark | 11 years and 3 months ago
true no Cof O before the 30s I think it was so its not a problem you essentially have a CofO and the building dept can not enter your house without a warrant so dont let them in if they knock and youre doing your own reno without permits. however they have no idea what your house is supposed to look like so ive had them through houses with all sorts of modifications and they assume theyre original [not thr brightest ] or they are grandfathered in. the banks are mostly concerned with more kitchens than the family status two family two kitchens one family one kitch bathrooms no one cares even with kitchend dob or bank will simply make you remove the stove voila wet bar the deck you might have to take down if someone rats you out building an extension will need a permit interior renovations well theres a lot af people on here that would love to sell you $400 a sq foot renovations and its true playing by the rules is really stupidly complicated in ny so if you have money and want a risk free life hire the leaches but if youre skint and are handy you can figure out the code and safe practices for doing most work yourself which though EVERYONE will do their best to hide and deny this is perfectly legal for a homeowner to do his own work on a 1-2 family in nyc