Cost and delayh to converting a brownstone with no C of O from a one-family to a 2-family?
Jim Hill, I”m in the process of converting a one family to a two family and the DOB is requiring that I install sprinklers in the entire building. What additional safety measures should I document in my request for a variance to the FDNY. What did you process your requests? Was it within the last year?
atoy22
in Brownstoner Renovation 11 years and 9 months ago
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10 replies
slackjaw | 12 years and 6 months ago
My wife and I are considering buying a brownstone-style townhouse. We recently learned that it has no C of O (pre-1938) and is a legal one-family. We could not afford it as a one-family. We had been relying on the rent from the garden apartment in our calculations. Does anyone know about the time and cost necessary to convert a one-family to a two-family, either by getting a C of O or a Letter of No Objection? Note: We don’t know how this building has been used in the past, so to be safe we have to assume that it has not been used continuously as a two-family. Thanks.
cobbledhill | 12 years and 6 months ago
As someone who has been through the nightmarish process of trying to change my pre-1938 c of c from a 4 to a 2, I strongly urge you to do whatever you can to avoid the buildings department bureacracy. otherwise, you will have to install sprinklers in your building, add an extra water line from city, endure yearly inspections from fire dept. The list goes on. FInd an architect who will draw up but not submit plans, find a good expediter, a good contractor and you will be fine. It took me a year and $50k in architect’s fees to come to this conclusion.
brucef | 12 years and 6 months ago
Cobbledhill, could you please contact me offline regarding arbitrary sprinkler decisions? Bruce at jerseydata.net
slackjaw | 12 years and 6 months ago
Cobbledhill, our architect friend tells us that you don’t need sprinklers or other special accommodations for a two-family. Just two exits from both units. Also, just $5-10k expediter fee to file the C of O, and 6 months, during which time we can do the renovation work we were going to do anyway. (We’ve allowed ourselves 8 months to completely redo the interior.) I’m wondering how to resolve what he’s telling us with your experience. Not sure if you disagree, or are just answering slightly different questions. We’ll ask him, but if you have any thoughts we’d value them too. Thanks for your response.
Augustiner | 12 years and 6 months ago
If you are applying for a new C of O, you can do nothing “under the radar”. Everything you do counts as “new construction”. The chance that you have a good team assembled by luck is about 0%. You will start to pay for paper and permits until you go insane and your wife / man / kids turn away from you because you have become a douchbag who thinks all day about only one thing: where do I get the money from to pay this and that. If you are planning on doing this just to “get some rental income”, and you can live a happy life just by leaving it a 1 fam – don´t even think about it. Rent it out illegaly.
Believe me, you don´t want this. Go to the park, enjoy the day, and never think about it again. If you can pay for it, you will have to collect rental income for 10 years until you recoup what you spent.
Slackjaw: if you are speaking about a past experience, then I congratulate you, you were lucky. If you just repeat what your architect told you, it is worth nothing. In fact, don´t hire him unless he´s done at least 5 comparable clients, All that “it´s easy” – “you just need to this and that” is barbecue party talk. My personal experience is that all these “friends” just want to make money, and a lengthy project with tons of changes is just good for them.
Sorry to be so negative, but after 3 years with still no house to live in I am kind of worn out.
cobbledhill | 12 years and 6 months ago
ANY change of C of O will trigger the sprinkler bull—-. Yes, sorry, but I do feel pretty bitter on this topic because my architect was so utterly clueless and I paid her a lot of money for her to know nothing. So, in the end, I had to file plans that did not match the real work I was doing and she walked off the job which was a godsend because I could not wait to be rid of her. But seriously. Maybe in a few years everybody will understand this is the reality of renovating a brownstone in Brooklyn today. Right now, a lot of architects talk as if they understand this process. They don’t. And at $200 an hour, they really ought to. Good, savvy contractors who understand the process and know how to talk to you about what you want are FAR more valuable than some Yale-trained..oh, dear Lord, do not get me started…Breathe deeply.
fawn | 12 years and 6 months ago
To be frank, your ‘architect friend’ is giving you bad advice. I highly suggest speaking to other architects (in established, experienced firms) about the scope and financial/time commitment of this project before taking the next step. The two commenters have had terrible experiences—that’s not the rule, but not uncommon. I agree with their take away message if not their advice: If you are considering a change of C of O because you need the rental income, you likely do not have enough of a financial cushion in place to do this renovation. You may breeze through, but need to have the resources available for a long, unpredictable, and expensive process. I would limit your search to 2 + family homes. Re: sprinklers: If you are changing the C of O to a 2 family, current regulation says you need sprinklers. If your architect friend does not know this, I would be very wary of ANY advice he/she is giving you. The regulation has been in place since 2008, but is now being strictly applied. When we were starting our C of O change (3 family to 1), this website was helpful for my own education: http://www.beatingupwind.com/2010-05/impact-on-townhouses-of-2008-nyc-building-code Finally, it’s my understanding that you can get a letter of no objection if the use of the home is reverting to its original state. You should look up the iCard for the property—mine was online. It will tell you how the building was originally used, as far as the DOB is concerned.
fawn | 12 years and 6 months ago
The link was cut off. The sprinkler regulation is BC 903.2.7 Google it and a few DOB presentations (and the website I tried to link to) are listed. You should educate yourself. Sprinklers become expensive because typically you need a standpipe/additional water line added to the house. That alone can be $20k, before the first sprinkler head is even added to your home. Most architects will also bring an engineer in to design the sprinkler system, which itself can be $5- $10k.
dazednconfused2 | 12 years and 6 months ago
I’m an architect and have done several of these conversions, and would like to add a little to the sprinkler discussion. If you are changing from a one family to a two, it is required that you add sprinklers. However, there is a process for requesting variances from the FDNY (by documenting additional safety measures in lieu of the sprinnklers), which if granted, can be used as a basis for a reconsideration from the DOB. We’ve done this a couple of times in cases similar to yours and have been able to avoid sprinklers.
boredatwork | 12 years and 6 months ago
My experience in this area relates only to sprinklers. I renovated more than 10 years ago and created a legal two family from a property without a CO. The house was already equipped with sprinklers (never tested) and a dedicated 1.5″ tap. About 13 months ago, we noted a leak in the street which after inspection by DEP turned out to be from the sprinkler service. They fined my $500 for a shut off and then required me to replace the service at a cost of approximately $13,000\. I spoke with an expediter who is very familiar with this process and told me that I would never get approval from the FDNY to remove the sprinkler line EVEN IF NOT REQUIRED BY CODE. His take on the matter was dont even try to get a variance. This is a slightly different scenario than the one outlined by jimhill_ra.