Another Question on Renovation Costs
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mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
To those who are saying $250 per sqft, what typically does that cover in your books? What level of fixtures? Thanks again.
espeon | 9 years and 2 months ago
Prometheus you originally asked about a complete gut renovation presumably to be performed by licensed professionals but now you’re getting cost ideas from piecemeal DIY jobs without permits or insurance that are far from gut renovations. To top it off you have an architect you’d rather not talk to because you don’t have the money to pay their hourly rates. I cannot imagine a more ill-conceived beginning your proposed venture. My advice is to go back to the drawing board and perhaps find a professional whose guidance you can afford? You should not even be thinking about fixtures right now, you should just try to understand what the least amount work will be, given the existing conditions, to achieve what you want. If it’s got to be a complete gut then you better listen to Curated and Carmenf.
bklynpwds | 9 years and 2 months ago
Do not forget to check into how the reno will affect your taxes. Our architect told us that our taxes would go down and they have quadrupled.
cate | 9 years and 2 months ago
This is all very good advice. Let me see if I can add some clarity to the discussion. $250 and up a square foot is what you will pay for a high end renovation with an enormous scope of work and top people. So, for example, this could include rebuilding most of the structure with steel, a $100K lighting program with its own lighting designer, a back wall with custom rolled steel windows, re-creating all the original details you just removed, and so on. . But relatively few people can afford a $1 to $3 million renovation. Many people, in central Brooklyn especially, are renovating old houses for around $250,000 or $300,000\. . I would suggest you start with your budget first. Be sure to reserve 10 to 15 percent for “surprises.” . Is a gut truly necessary? Just because you need to redo the plumbing and electrical does not mean you need to gut. You mention the joists — on every floor? What are you trying to accomplish? . You will save money by limiting the scope of work, not by choosing inexpensive finishes (and certainly not by DIYing). So, for example, if you don’t gut, move fixtures or wet rooms, build additions, or change the C of O, and you don’t need an alt-1 or alt-2, and you’re not triggering additional code requirements such as sprinklers, your costs will be much lower. . On the other hand, you’d be foolish not to do important needed structural work, add central air, and so forth while the walls are open and you’re not living in the house. . Talk to a number of contractors and architects before you make up your mind. . Here are some articles that may be helpful: http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2016/01/renovation-costs-kitchen-bathroom-brooklyn-house/ http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2015/11/renovating-an-old-house-top-10-things-to-know/
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@xagor, Thank you for the advice. You are right that I came in asking for one thing and seemed to have changed my mind. As I stated in my opening post?I came trying to get a grasp of the costs associated with what I would like to be able to do, and based on curated yours and others advice?thank you for that by the way,it seems that the cost would have reached almost a million dollar. That was more than I expected, so I was exploring other options. As for your assumption that I can not afford an architect?I personally feel that that is very presumptuous and condescending of you. Just because I wish to gain a better understanding of the costs from a wider range of people to better set my expectations does not mean I can not afford my current architect. if you have the extra cash to pay others to advise you, without needing to do your own research, more power to you. I have always and will always be willing to spend money to get things done properly, but I have no desire to spend extra money for the sake of doing so.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@cate Thank you very much for the advice. I really appreciate it. I will look through the links provided. for the joists, it was my understanding that sloped floors usually meant that your joists have started to banana, and as such if I was replacing and flooring, I thought since they would be exposed, it might be a good idea to either ge them replaced or sistered. As you say it may not be necessary. I will keep your other questions in mind as I continue along this project. Thank you again for all the advice.
cate | 9 years and 2 months ago
You are most welcome. Sloped floors can have a variety of causes — some of which are important to correct and others not. It all really depends on your particular situation and what you need and prefer to do.
espeon | 9 years and 2 months ago
Just trying to help you Prometheus. None of us here know as much about your property and goals as your architect does so I still say meeting with them for one hour is money well spent and more efficient. These early stages are critical and while your research is new and time consuming to you, the architect can process it much faster and offer solutions at the same time. I see no worthwhile savings gained by trying to curtail your architect’s involvement.
curated | 9 years and 2 months ago
Prometheus here is some more info. You can basically tackle your renovation in one of two ways. First option is to piecemeal it like some of the above posters. Without a doubt your renovation will end up costing way more and take much longer than initially expected (as posters themselves admitted) Second option is to hire a team of professionals that will give you accurate figures that they can stick to and who can perform a quality renovation in a reasonable time frame. We have performed countless gut renovations with final sf pricing ranging anywhere between 200-800/sf. Typically a gut renovation, that is fully permitted/inspected, performed by contractors with real insurance coverage and which entails all new everything in the home (other than the 4 outside walls) starts at about $250/sf. The majority of the gut renovations we perform end up costing between 250-400/sf. Now keep in mind that what your home may not need a full gut renovation. You may only need to do a partial gut or gut just certain spaces with the rest of the work being more cosmetic in nature. Depending on scope can save you a lot. It sounds like many of the above posters quoting lower figures are not doing full gut renovations down to the 4 walls of the house. You definitely need to speak to an architect or designer and have a solid hour long meeting to determine what you are hoping to achieve and what the budget should be. Many architects while great at designing spaces are not good at budgeting/estimating so choose wisely in this area. I’ll also note that we strongly feel that hourly billing is not the best option for the design team nor the owner. Additionally you need to take into account all other soft costs involved with your project and your architect should be able to detail each of those with accuracy. On a true full gut renovation there should be no surprises like chimneys being lined, new roofs etc. If a proper plan and scope is set prior to any work starting all this should be known before any demo ever starts. Contingencies are rarely needed on a properly planned full gut renovation. Lastly you mentioned living in part of the house while work happens. If you are doing a true full gut renovation there is no way for you to live in the house. DOB won’t allow it nor would any good contractor. Feel free to contact us if you’d like to discuss further. www.curatedny.com
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
To echo what Cate said about sloped floors- depending on the condition and size of your house, you may be able to get away with sistering a few beams which is relatively cheap, or you may need to replace a bunch of them (more $$) or you may need to add steel to support them (most expensive). It’s really difficult to tell before you start your project. Lets say its a combination of sistering and replacing, which I think is pretty common. Once you start touching those joists, you may have to deal with the pockets they rest in, which are likely made out of brick. If that brick has never been touched, the mortar is probably failing. Moving the joists can cause the pockets to collapse which can cause the wall to become destabilized, which is a structural issue for the entire house. So then you move into repairing the brick, but while you’re at it it doesn’t make sense to just fix the bricks that are currently collapsing, and your structural engineer demands (rightly so) that you fix the entire wall. You just went from replacing one joist for maybe $500 to probably $4k+ in brickwork (that might be really low on a 4-story house) plus probably 3-5 days of time. For each walls where the joists sit. Hows that drain pipe? Probably made of clay and rotting. That’ll be $5k to fix and hook up to the sewer. Oh, it’s got tree roots in it at the street? And it also happens to hook into the sewer wayyyyy up the block? That’s $15k to replace. Hows your water supply looking? You’ve currently got one kitchen and two bathrooms and now you want 2 kitchens and 4 bathrooms (for example) plus a few washing machines. That 3/4″, filled-with-setiment water main won’t cut it anymore. You probably need a 1.25-1.5″ one. That’ll be $5-10k. New roof? Of course you were planning on a new membrane, but once the ceiling comes off you realize a few of the joists are rotted and need to be replaced, which involves touching the old membrane, which will crack and fail. Oh, and one deep layer of the old one has asbestos which will cost you $14k to abate beyond the roof work. That’s a fun problem! Nevermind those old existing extensions which may have insufficient foundations and which may leak like a sieve. There’s so much more. Foundation issues, any kind of digging, drainage problems, insufficient gas/electric, illegal DIY stuff done by previous owners… All of this is before you even start thinking about fixtures and finishes. That’s the part you can actually control- most of the rest of this stuff is necessary. When you discover a structural issue with the house (or an issue that will likely become structural in the future) you can’t just turn away because you want that fancy light fixture. Things like waterproofing and insulation are not fun and are expensive, but are required for your long-term investment. Luckily, we have pretty simple taste and we weren’t planning anything bonkers with the finishes and fixtures. If we went crazy with Waterworks and SubZero and all that jazz, we could have easily added another $100k to the finished cost. We are going higher-end than the cheapest $80 home depot toilet, but certainly not budgeting for a $1500 toilet, either. No custom plaster work, no crazy molding, very little restoration, which is extremely expensive and hard to do on a real gut job (keep that in mind, too- if your floors are sloping you likely have to say goodbye to your beautiful period plaster details.) I’m not trying to be a downer- this is just reality. In fairness, as I said, we did not go with the cheapest contractor we found (which came in right around 250 per sqft) but decided to go with a larger GC firm that offered a PM dedicated to our site who is on-site every day for most of the day (he opens and closes the site.) I am SO glad that we did- not only are we not equipped to manage a project like this, but frankly we are too busy to be fretting over every detail and wondering how the work is progressing. We trust him and the owner of the firm to inform us of problems but to generally take care of things. We’re over there a few times a week and have not been disappointed with the rate of progress. We get updated schedules every week, our bills make sense and are accurate down to the penny and we have someone to call or email who responds to us within hours. Seeing posts here about GCs walking off jobs or disappearing with deposits really drives home the difference between a cut-rate, potentially unlicensed, uninsured job and a job through a larger firm with a stronger reputation and track record. This path isn’t for everyone, but it’s working well for us and is something to keep in mind when people say “oh yeah, you can do it for $150sqft as long as you want to DIY half of it and manage your own subs!” If you are able to devote the equivalent of a full-time job to the project for a year, go for it. We were not. That was extremely long-winded. If anyone here wants more details about our experience thus far you can find me at greenwoodframed at gmail
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@curated @carmenf Thank you both very much taking the time out to provide such a detailed response. I really appreciate it. Your posts were very informative, and has given me a lot to think about. If you don’t mind me asking both of you an additional question. @curated Are most of your projects either taking a multi family to a single family or single plus garden? Or renovating multi family for mix of owner use and rental? I’m just having some difficulty imaging spending 250 a sqft on rental units. If necessary to repair structural work, sure, I can see the costs rising. Sorry I know my question seems to be changing, but based on your response and others, I’m thinking of not doing a complete gut for the rental units, and just doing that for my duplex. @carmenf Similar question, are you converting entire building to solo use or more than one rental unit? @cate For those doing the 300k renovations I’m assuming based on the great responses provided by curated and Carmenf that those renovations are not doing major structural work? @xagor I appreciate your help, like I said I will definitely bring in my architect or another architect depending on the direction I go in at the early stage, but I want a more solid idea of what I want to do first. As I’ve heard on this forum change orders are where prices start going up, and that’s the same for drafting plans, etc. Thanks in advance for and replies, and thank you all for all taking the time out to respond. This has been extremely helpful.
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
xprometheusx We are converting a two family to a single family, but it’s smaller than yours (our original footprint was 21X32 on three floors and a cellar.) The house is legally a 2 and had two kitchens, however it was one family living in it with the adult kids upstairs and, as such, the layout wasn’t really conducive to a tenant (the bathroom was off the hallway, the whole parlor floor was accessible to the upstairs tenant, etc.) It will be smaller than your house even after our extension is complete. We will end up with 3 beds, 3.5 baths. I do question if leaving it at a two family would have been cheaper in renovating since then we would have been dealing with two full kitchens, but we would probably have been able to cut out one full bath. I’m also very glad we didn’t have to deal with sprinklers as I only hear horror stories about them. As I said, we’re doing very little fancy things to the house and the price is still as I mentioned. The one finish item that we’re spending a lot on is the original floors, but that’s essentially it. We are also not doing central AC and are using the mini-split system and are doing baseboard heat with electric radiant in the bathrooms which is worth looking into, imho- it’s not very expensive to install and they’re very energy efficient. If you have the floors ripped up anyway, it would be a nice touch for a rental. feel free to email me at the above if you have other questions. I’m happy to chat about it! We went into the project not knowing anyone who has ever done similar work and it would have been helpful to have had someone to bounce ideas off of.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@carmenf, Thank you for the fast response. I would definitely love to be able to chat with you about your renovations and solicit your suggestions/lessons learned. Can you email me at rlee0102@gmail.com? I tried to find the email in your post, and wasn’t able to. Thanks
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
Email sent. Cheers.
sidewalksurfing | 9 years and 2 months ago
OMG Randolph pretty much nailed it, hahaha. We just finished an almost-gut on a 4 story brownstone in stuy heights and it was a ROUGH ride. Although I guess it is feasible to get some of the lower sf prices please for the sake of your sanity plan HIGH. Our architect and contractor wound up despising one another, despite having vetted all the bids/gc’s with our architect. We really trusted our architect, prob a little too much, he was wildly off with some of his estimates on Windows, AC system etc. my advice is def get a contractor and architect that have worked together before and get prices yourself to plan accordingly. Realize you are about to embark on a process which is unpredictable and there will be things you didn’t plan for, now matter how late you stay up at night reading brownstoner. Trust me, it will CONSUME your life. Good luck!
abaconstructions | 9 years and 2 months ago
Hello xprometheusx, We just recently completed a few major renovations in Bed-Stuy, Park Slope and just recently another one in Bushwick. We take on projects for gut renovations, we also do rentals/owner use, multi family, single family, kitchen and bathroom renovations etc. The contractor is licensed, is on site each day, supervises all work and has his own architect/designer team. You can also drop by to see the work we have done in Brooklyn, and also we can provide a detailed estimate. Feel free to contact us at 646-409-2009 (ADIS) or via email at abaconstructions@gmail.com if you are still interested. Thank you and we wish you the best of luck.
sqhaexgkh | 9 years and 2 months ago
We’re just ending our gut Reno- total gut. Couldn’t save anything. Not including the backyard or any exterior work all in were at $340 a sq foot (high end kitchen, central air, but no custom milwork). There were several unanticipated projects that took us from about 300 a square foot to 340\. These projects are inevitable. Took 9 months from closing to move in (though we are moving in before final sign off). We chose and purchased all finishes. I would do it again in a heartbeat, but it’s not an easy or stress free process by any means.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@sidewalksurfing Thanks for replying and your advice. If you don’t mind, what do you mean by almost gut? @hellobrooklyn12345 So at $340 a sqft, you were doing basically a shell rebuild? Also was this a 4 story single family renovation? or did it include multiple kitches? Thanks again for your replies. I really appreciate it.
newtomehouse | 9 years and 2 months ago
We just wrapped up our gut renovation. 3 stories plus cellar, owners duplex over garden rental. It was a total gut down to the four outside walls and down to floor joists. Two floors we were able to swap damaged joists as needed and sister/level. One floor we had to re-do the whole thing in steel (that was the only post-demo surprise and one we had been prepared for). Our final all in cost ended up being 325/sf. This included all new windows, roof, central AC, hot water heating system, all new plumbing and electric, one custom kitchen/high end appliances. We went the design-build route so the final number includes everything. It broke down to 285/sf for construction (labor and materials), 30,000 for appliances and 90,000 for soft costs. DOB approvals took way longer than we had hoped for. Construction took just shy of 12 months as initially expected. Only minor surprise we had was having to re-do one floor in all steel but we had been warned that may be necessary (on all floors) before we started. Luckily it ended up only being needed on one floor. We actually came in 25k under what our initial worst case budget was. Then again we designed towards our budget. There were certain things we definitely wanted as far as finishes and other areas where we were willing to use simpler finishes. Example is we used simple subway tiles in guest and tenant baths instead of marble tiles like in the master bath. The overall process of the gut renovation was at times stressful but mostly because we had to stay in a small rental for 18 months instead of 15 as planned (due to DOB delays). At the end of the day I would still do it again though. Having basically a new house with the design, layout and finishes we wanted was worth it all.