Another Question on Renovation Costs
Hi Everyone, Before I begin, thank you for any and all responses I get. I know this is the umpteenth time this question has been asked, but I was hoping to get a little more specifics. I am planning to do a renovation, and wanted to get an idea on the costs in order to ballpark how much cash I need to have/finance. I am looking at a complete gut. As in take everything down to the studs and joists, and sister the joists, rewire and replumb the entire building. It would be better to think of the starting point as a shell. I already have an architect lined up, but before I start paying any architect fees, I want to know rough costs before I proceed. Some details. Building is a 20 X 35 building with a 20 by 12 extension. It is 4 floors + cellar. My plan is to keep it as a three family, duplexing the garden and parlor floor (1 kitchen 3 bathrooms, and have two units above (1 kitchen 2 baths). Finishes will be ikea kitchens, and moderate Home depot bathrooms etc. No central air conditioning. I’ve read on this forum that people suggest $225 per sqft, but elsewhere, I have seen $125,000 given as a ball park for a gut renovation per floor. The two seem to give widely divergent estimates, and I was hoping people could give just a ball park range of what they spent on similar renovations. Thank you again for all your help.
mhquinones
in Brownstoner Renovation 9 years and 2 months ago
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46 replies
cate | 9 years and 2 months ago
You are most welcome. Sloped floors can have a variety of causes — some of which are important to correct and others not. It all really depends on your particular situation and what you need and prefer to do.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@cate Thank you very much for the advice. I really appreciate it. I will look through the links provided. for the joists, it was my understanding that sloped floors usually meant that your joists have started to banana, and as such if I was replacing and flooring, I thought since they would be exposed, it might be a good idea to either ge them replaced or sistered. As you say it may not be necessary. I will keep your other questions in mind as I continue along this project. Thank you again for all the advice.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@xagor, Thank you for the advice. You are right that I came in asking for one thing and seemed to have changed my mind. As I stated in my opening post?I came trying to get a grasp of the costs associated with what I would like to be able to do, and based on curated yours and others advice?thank you for that by the way,it seems that the cost would have reached almost a million dollar. That was more than I expected, so I was exploring other options. As for your assumption that I can not afford an architect?I personally feel that that is very presumptuous and condescending of you. Just because I wish to gain a better understanding of the costs from a wider range of people to better set my expectations does not mean I can not afford my current architect. if you have the extra cash to pay others to advise you, without needing to do your own research, more power to you. I have always and will always be willing to spend money to get things done properly, but I have no desire to spend extra money for the sake of doing so.
cate | 9 years and 2 months ago
This is all very good advice. Let me see if I can add some clarity to the discussion. $250 and up a square foot is what you will pay for a high end renovation with an enormous scope of work and top people. So, for example, this could include rebuilding most of the structure with steel, a $100K lighting program with its own lighting designer, a back wall with custom rolled steel windows, re-creating all the original details you just removed, and so on. . But relatively few people can afford a $1 to $3 million renovation. Many people, in central Brooklyn especially, are renovating old houses for around $250,000 or $300,000\. . I would suggest you start with your budget first. Be sure to reserve 10 to 15 percent for “surprises.” . Is a gut truly necessary? Just because you need to redo the plumbing and electrical does not mean you need to gut. You mention the joists — on every floor? What are you trying to accomplish? . You will save money by limiting the scope of work, not by choosing inexpensive finishes (and certainly not by DIYing). So, for example, if you don’t gut, move fixtures or wet rooms, build additions, or change the C of O, and you don’t need an alt-1 or alt-2, and you’re not triggering additional code requirements such as sprinklers, your costs will be much lower. . On the other hand, you’d be foolish not to do important needed structural work, add central air, and so forth while the walls are open and you’re not living in the house. . Talk to a number of contractors and architects before you make up your mind. . Here are some articles that may be helpful: http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2016/01/renovation-costs-kitchen-bathroom-brooklyn-house/ http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2015/11/renovating-an-old-house-top-10-things-to-know/
bklynpwds | 9 years and 2 months ago
Do not forget to check into how the reno will affect your taxes. Our architect told us that our taxes would go down and they have quadrupled.
espeon | 9 years and 2 months ago
Prometheus you originally asked about a complete gut renovation presumably to be performed by licensed professionals but now you’re getting cost ideas from piecemeal DIY jobs without permits or insurance that are far from gut renovations. To top it off you have an architect you’d rather not talk to because you don’t have the money to pay their hourly rates. I cannot imagine a more ill-conceived beginning your proposed venture. My advice is to go back to the drawing board and perhaps find a professional whose guidance you can afford? You should not even be thinking about fixtures right now, you should just try to understand what the least amount work will be, given the existing conditions, to achieve what you want. If it’s got to be a complete gut then you better listen to Curated and Carmenf.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
To those who are saying $250 per sqft, what typically does that cover in your books? What level of fixtures? Thanks again.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@soundhoner – thanks for the email. I’ll be responding soon. @cmu – is there any chance I could also speak to you? Would also love more information on your renovation.
soundhoner | 9 years and 2 months ago
@cmu — do you have contact info ? Would love to talk to you about your reno! @xprometheusx — I’ve emailed you.
cmu | 9 years and 2 months ago
I kinda agree with soundhoner. Having done a decent amount of piecemeal reno over the last decade, I’ve spent abt. 1/2 of what I see quoted here. I’m currently in the process of reno-ing about 500 sq ft, with a new stair between 2 floors, a new kitchen and a new bath, and coming in at $125/ft. But then I do things like specify a rear-outlet toilet so we don’t have to move an existing flange, and am planning to use rubber flooring to save on tiling costs in the new bath. So far everything I’ve had done looks good, but of course my trim is not waxed and I don’t have an overpriced Subzero. Even an architect I know used a kit stair (it looks like an erector set) in his full-house reno, no doubt for cost reasons. To say $300/ft is a starter means you’ve being taken for a ride.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
Wow, Thank you everyone for all your posts and advice. Seems like there is a lot of differing opinions. As I am planning to live in the unit but rent out the other two units, maybe I should be thinking of this as two jobs. Soundhoner, is there any chance I could get more information on what your friends did with their “white box rentals”? my email is rlee0102@gmail.com Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. I might go that route for the two rental units. For everyone else, it seems like if I want something nicer for myself, I need to budget at a minimum $250/sqft. Also Xagor, I don’t mind working with my architect, but at their hourly billing rates, any simple discussions leads to a quickly snowballing invoice. If I can go in with more realistic expectations as to build quality/design etc, it will be a more concise and productive meeting. If anyone else has more opinions/advice, please let me know.
espeon | 9 years and 2 months ago
There is some very misleading information here. Note very carefully that all the lowballers are confessing that it costs more than they thought and at the the same time rejecting the more prudent and realistic figures. Equally dangerous is secondhand knowledge of costs without any understanding of what was done. To the OP: Since you have an architect lined up, start your cost discussion with them or you will go around in circles. Hint: The design should match your budget.
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
soundhoner “Industry people” (ie- service providers) are the last people I would trust for quotes. We did not use any professionals recommended on Brownstoner and all of our pricing came in between $250-$325 sqft, even for VERY cut-rate contractors. Prior to actually starting our project, a lot of people told us that it would be much less (industry folks and neighbors, etc.) but when it came time to really get the bids, they were all about the same. We got bids from 7 GCs. We are adding an extension, though, so I’m sure that drives up the cost significantly.
soundhoner | 9 years and 2 months ago
I’m starting to price out a floor rehab myself. What I’ve noticed is that when I talk to people ‘in the real world’ and I mention Brownstoner forum prices, almost everyone says, ‘Oh, pay no attention to these prices, it’s wildly inflated.’ Brokers, fellow homeowners, and random people I talk to in the industry all say the same things. I mean, look at the high-end pictures of the homes being advertised on Brownstoner. These are de luxe furnishings, and the folks who do that work are advertising themselves there too. These bathrooms look like something you’d expect to see in Windsor Castle. No wonder it costs 150K per floor. In one anecdote, someone I know needed to redo the cornice on his brownstone, and not knowing any better he turned to the Brownstoner forum. He took a highly recommended contractor to do it, and they ended up starting to plan some insanely expensive items, like getting a crane there. Eventually he dumped that and found a quality craftsman who did it at a fraction of the price. And it looks great, still. Between you and me, if I had 125-150K ‘per floor’ to spend, I’d be buying another property! Who in the world would want to spend that much, unless you’re an owner-occupier wanting to turn the feel of your house into the Ritz-Carlton? And what are these prices coming from, this is just labor? Is there an alteration to the floor plan? A sprinkler system being installed? Change to C of O? etc. Several friends spent 30-50K per floor on gut rehabs and they’re very happy. Got their C of O’s too. No one has any fancy A/C, and none of their units look anything like you see advertised on the Brownstoner ‘for sale’ section. Just ‘white boxes’ that generate solid rental income. Here’s hoping some sanity makes its way here price-wise.
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
I’m always the one chiming in with the $300 per sqft number for construction only, and I’ll stand by it if you’re doing any amount of structural work. Depending on how old your house is, you’ll likely need some level of brick work, joist sistering, etc. What about a new water main? Sewer pipe? Roof? It really depends on the condition of your house. Our house is 160+ years old and was not well maintained (lots of linoleum and wood paneling not withstanding) and we are basically rebuilding the house. Depending on the quality of the extensions as they’re built, you may need to essentially tear down and remove them. Need more head room on your stairs? That’s not as easy as it sounds…failing brick? $$$. Want to excavate anywhere? Unless you have street access, that means nice workers digging and carrying hundreds of bags of dirt by hand, which costs money and time. Give yourself 100k extra and at least twice as long as you think it will take for permitting. Then add 30% more time for construction than your GC quotes you and you’re about there. With that said, it can be fun if you allow it to be and you trust your GC and team. We’re really happy with our team so far (we’re about halfway through an Alt1) and it makes it more fun. Also don’t forget to budget rent for wherever you’re staying during the 8-12 months that construction will take. It’s a great “bonding experience” with your spouse, if you have one.
empathie00 | 9 years and 2 months ago
Hi xprometheusx – someone gave us the roughly $100K/floor estimate before we started and I blew them off, knowing my husband and I would do much of the demo and carpentry work ourselves; I sourced **everything** from flooring to door hinges on my own to get the best pricing; we’d go to DoB ourselves so no need for $10K on an expediter, etc…so of COURSE it wouldn’t cost us $400K in total – “these people don’t know what they’re talking about!” I thought. Four years and $425K later, we’re still not 100% done, and now we need a new roof to boot. (that said, it’s a big house, so this works out to about $125/sq ft) I agree with Randolph re: at LEAST a $100K contingency…these are old houses, stuff comes up. With an Alt1 permit, the whole house has to be brought up to current code. Since ours hadn’t been touched since 1938, this was a massive undertaking – code issues alone probably cost us close to $100K (for example, chimney needed to be relined to meet code, but to reline meant having to restructure part of the chimney – $20K out the door before we even started). Structural issues arise as soon as you start opening floors and ceilings and they’re never cheap; ours were such that we ended up having to hire a structural engineer. And unless you plan to quit your job and live at DoB, you DO need an expediter. So, yes, $100K seems like a ton but it doesn’t go far. There are also a lot of things that will come up during the reno that may not be 100% necessary, but will save you lots of $$ in the long run if you do them now rather than wait til after the walls are closed up. We could have switched to gas/hot water heat instead of our old steam system for ~$10K, but decided we just didn’t have the funds at the time…of course our boiler went out 18 months later and cost about $7K just to get the OLD system working again – how I wish we’d just done a brand new, more efficient system at the time for only $3K more. So it’s useful to consider that too (as people are tell you above re: the AC). In terms of general costs – do you need a new roof? Windows? How waterproof is the cellar? Are you excavating? Do you have ample gas and electrical coming into the house or do you have to upgrade? Are you sure? 🙂 We hit all of these issues and then some, and all were out of pocket beyond what we’d originally budgeted. So …I wish you luck, and that you win the lottery (after I do, anyway) 🙂 cheers e
resident2 | 9 years and 2 months ago
No one can give you any price other than a very broad range because you have not given enough specifics, but also without walking through it and doing some due diligence and tests, etc. If you are in fact doing a complete gut rehab, keep in mind that you are basically building a new building, that is the way the DOB & the Department of Finance will look at it and so will entail many more additional costs that you will not have if you did it as an “old code” alteration. If it is currently a 3 family, then do it as an “old code” alteration. But also keep in mind that you will need a different skill level from your contractors for a renovation as apposed to a new build. The final Real Estate tax assessment alone on a Gut Rehab, may make you change your mind, something that Architects seem not concern themselves with. But all that said; depending if you are in a Landmark district, is the building masonry or frame? Is the building built in a low damp area or in a higher well drained area? What is the quality of the other buildings on the block, in the area etc. But with all that said and all the many years of experience that I have had in this business; I find prices all over the place and the skill, knowledge and experience of some that call themselves contractors really frightening these days. Just a simple example. I am pricing a gut rehab for a one family at the moment; just the roof alone I have had quotes from $8,000.00 to $21,000 and when I ask questions of these contractors they cannot give me an answer as to what, how and why… none of them. My last roofer has retired! I miss him already.
randolph | 9 years and 2 months ago
when we took our place down to the joists we discovered structural issues much worse than expected. i just threw out that 100k number to make the point that seemingly simple things can quickly escalate and become complicated and expensive. as for how much your reno should cost, i have no idea and neither does anyone else. you have to start putting together a budget and then be prepared for it all to spiral out of control….sleepless nights….existential dread….regret….marital strife…..RUN AWAY NOW WHILE YOU CAN DO NOT GET YOURSELF INVOLVED IN A GUT RENOVATION!!!!!!!!
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
Hi Randolph, Thanks for the post and advice. In your experience what types of problem might I find that could spike the renovation by 100K? Also what price point do you think a renovation of my scale would cost? Not factoring in the 100K contingency? Thanks again to everyone in the thread for their responses.