Another Question on Renovation Costs
Hi Everyone, Before I begin, thank you for any and all responses I get. I know this is the umpteenth time this question has been asked, but I was hoping to get a little more specifics. I am planning to do a renovation, and wanted to get an idea on the costs in order to ballpark how much cash I need to have/finance. I am looking at a complete gut. As in take everything down to the studs and joists, and sister the joists, rewire and replumb the entire building. It would be better to think of the starting point as a shell. I already have an architect lined up, but before I start paying any architect fees, I want to know rough costs before I proceed. Some details. Building is a 20 X 35 building with a 20 by 12 extension. It is 4 floors + cellar. My plan is to keep it as a three family, duplexing the garden and parlor floor (1 kitchen 3 bathrooms, and have two units above (1 kitchen 2 baths). Finishes will be ikea kitchens, and moderate Home depot bathrooms etc. No central air conditioning. I’ve read on this forum that people suggest $225 per sqft, but elsewhere, I have seen $125,000 given as a ball park for a gut renovation per floor. The two seem to give widely divergent estimates, and I was hoping people could give just a ball park range of what they spent on similar renovations. Thank you again for all your help.
mhquinones
in Brownstoner Renovation 9 years and 2 months ago
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jonbklyn | 9 years and 2 months ago
we’re about 4 months into a large-scale renovation with @curated. you will be doing yourself a real disservice if you don’t contact them to bid on your project. while i can’t give feedback on the final product yet, the process so far has been exceptional — and they’ve been involved from the beginning of our house search through design, demo + construction. they have yet to miss a deadline and any email i send will always get a response the same day. best of luck to you!
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
xprometheusx I really love our contractor so far (as I said, we’re a bit more than 50% done.) You have my email if you’d like a recommendation.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
Thank you again everyone for sharing your experiences and advice. Sorry for my delayed responses, work has been crazy. I think I have a much better picture of the costs that will be associated with doing this project. I will probably only do the full gut/restoration work on the duplex I will be living in and a much more cosmetic renovation for the two rental units. Time to start getting the finances in line. If anyone has any contractor suggestions (both for the gut, and for a more cosmetic job), I would really appreciate it.
soundhoner | 9 years and 2 months ago
This is probably a tangent worthy of a totally separate thread, but .. if one is wearing an investor’s hat, spending 500,000 for a sweeping luxury renovation makes no sense. If I’m wearing a family-having, owner-occupier’s hat, then maybe it makes sense. If one does a whitebox renovation, one can get the desired rental income based on ‘core’ aspects of the unit. Number of bedrooms. It better have a dishwasher? Does it have a washer and dryer? Oh, the recessed lighting looks nice. Hm, floor is a little slope but this is an old house, so we can live with that. What do you think, honey? Oh, it’s how far from the train? Nice. When people bust out designers, project managers overseeing architects overseeing GC’s, and 300 a square foot budgets for rentals, I question their economic sense. What’s that caesar stone, custom drop lighting, intricate tiling in the bathroom and central A/C netting you more a month. 2-300 bucks? It’ll take you a decade or more to recover what you’ve paid your pyramid of experts for the luxuries. And not to mention you better hope your renters don’t damage your expensive investment. I’m facing this issue right now on one of my floors. I’d *LOVE* to turn it into a condo-finished, classy little pad. Compete against the other rentals in the area, there are brand new buildings with these finishes. But the math doesn’t pan out when I think about the rental income I’d get. I can tell because I know what my neighbors pay for rent, and I know what these new luxury buildings are asking, and folks, I can tell you it’s barely a few hundred dollars a month. Given $500,000, if I had that much, I’d throw 150 into the project and use the rest to finance the purchase of another building. That’s the long-term view. All that to say, I really hope straightening my floors doesn’t cost anywhere near the budget numbers being paraded around these forums! Or my future tenants are going to be using folded cardboard to keep their furniture level. 🙂
cate | 9 years and 2 months ago
@xprometheusx correct those $250 to $300K renovations in Central Brooklyn are most certainly not as extensive as what CarmenF is describing — not even close. They will involve wholesale replacement of mechanicals and upgraded baths and kitchens, but typically not full guts and only additional bits of structural and other things here and there. Definitely no manager, maybe not even an architect, maybe just a licensed GC. . For example — an example of a structural bit we did — in the cellar, we sistered a bunch of joists and replaced 1/4 of the main beam and put in two new footed columns, but that was actually pretty minor work and not particularly expensive (a few thousand). The reason was termite damage. . Our floors slope a bit but it’s not something we want to change.
sqhaexgkh | 9 years and 2 months ago
Yes, a shell rebuild 100% (only kept the 4 exterior walls, but no fancy opening up of the back wall for instance). Had to put in new joists (which was a significant part of the price going up from 300 a sq foot). We knew we were doing a full gut, so there were certainly less unanticipated costs, but the joists were a killer. 3 story brick home (though half the unfinished cellar was calculated for the price per square foot because they technically had to work in there as well, so keep that in mind). We have one kitchen, 3.5 baths. We used a company that hires their own architect/expeditor, so those costs were all wrapped up in the quote we got. Definitely not the cheapest contractor out there and they worked with us on price (would have liked to charge more), but did a great job. We did not solicit other bids. The home we lived in before, purchased from a developer who used cheap labor, was a total mess and this company helped us fix the problems. That experience taught me to go with someone you trust and get it done right the first time.
atkxrplrpfdqj | 9 years and 2 months ago
Hello, We just finished in December similar job in Bed-Sty. 4 floors + cellar, gut renovation (with 50 beam replacement), new windows, new plumbing, new sprinkler, new electric. We charged the client $475,000 total job was 3200 sqf + 800 cellar. There was additional $40,000 in additional work requested by the owner as the job was progressing. (they added a deck, decided to add landscaping to our contract, to pour concrete floor in the cellar and tile the floor). You can see the photos of the job on our website: www.citiinteriors.com job is 147 Stuyvesant Ave Regards, Alek Citi Interiors
newtomehouse | 9 years and 2 months ago
We just wrapped up our gut renovation. 3 stories plus cellar, owners duplex over garden rental. It was a total gut down to the four outside walls and down to floor joists. Two floors we were able to swap damaged joists as needed and sister/level. One floor we had to re-do the whole thing in steel (that was the only post-demo surprise and one we had been prepared for). Our final all in cost ended up being 325/sf. This included all new windows, roof, central AC, hot water heating system, all new plumbing and electric, one custom kitchen/high end appliances. We went the design-build route so the final number includes everything. It broke down to 285/sf for construction (labor and materials), 30,000 for appliances and 90,000 for soft costs. DOB approvals took way longer than we had hoped for. Construction took just shy of 12 months as initially expected. Only minor surprise we had was having to re-do one floor in all steel but we had been warned that may be necessary (on all floors) before we started. Luckily it ended up only being needed on one floor. We actually came in 25k under what our initial worst case budget was. Then again we designed towards our budget. There were certain things we definitely wanted as far as finishes and other areas where we were willing to use simpler finishes. Example is we used simple subway tiles in guest and tenant baths instead of marble tiles like in the master bath. The overall process of the gut renovation was at times stressful but mostly because we had to stay in a small rental for 18 months instead of 15 as planned (due to DOB delays). At the end of the day I would still do it again though. Having basically a new house with the design, layout and finishes we wanted was worth it all.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@sidewalksurfing Thanks for replying and your advice. If you don’t mind, what do you mean by almost gut? @hellobrooklyn12345 So at $340 a sqft, you were doing basically a shell rebuild? Also was this a 4 story single family renovation? or did it include multiple kitches? Thanks again for your replies. I really appreciate it.
sqhaexgkh | 9 years and 2 months ago
We’re just ending our gut Reno- total gut. Couldn’t save anything. Not including the backyard or any exterior work all in were at $340 a sq foot (high end kitchen, central air, but no custom milwork). There were several unanticipated projects that took us from about 300 a square foot to 340\. These projects are inevitable. Took 9 months from closing to move in (though we are moving in before final sign off). We chose and purchased all finishes. I would do it again in a heartbeat, but it’s not an easy or stress free process by any means.
abaconstructions | 9 years and 2 months ago
Hello xprometheusx, We just recently completed a few major renovations in Bed-Stuy, Park Slope and just recently another one in Bushwick. We take on projects for gut renovations, we also do rentals/owner use, multi family, single family, kitchen and bathroom renovations etc. The contractor is licensed, is on site each day, supervises all work and has his own architect/designer team. You can also drop by to see the work we have done in Brooklyn, and also we can provide a detailed estimate. Feel free to contact us at 646-409-2009 (ADIS) or via email at abaconstructions@gmail.com if you are still interested. Thank you and we wish you the best of luck.
sidewalksurfing | 9 years and 2 months ago
OMG Randolph pretty much nailed it, hahaha. We just finished an almost-gut on a 4 story brownstone in stuy heights and it was a ROUGH ride. Although I guess it is feasible to get some of the lower sf prices please for the sake of your sanity plan HIGH. Our architect and contractor wound up despising one another, despite having vetted all the bids/gc’s with our architect. We really trusted our architect, prob a little too much, he was wildly off with some of his estimates on Windows, AC system etc. my advice is def get a contractor and architect that have worked together before and get prices yourself to plan accordingly. Realize you are about to embark on a process which is unpredictable and there will be things you didn’t plan for, now matter how late you stay up at night reading brownstoner. Trust me, it will CONSUME your life. Good luck!
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
Email sent. Cheers.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@carmenf, Thank you for the fast response. I would definitely love to be able to chat with you about your renovations and solicit your suggestions/lessons learned. Can you email me at rlee0102@gmail.com? I tried to find the email in your post, and wasn’t able to. Thanks
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
xprometheusx We are converting a two family to a single family, but it’s smaller than yours (our original footprint was 21X32 on three floors and a cellar.) The house is legally a 2 and had two kitchens, however it was one family living in it with the adult kids upstairs and, as such, the layout wasn’t really conducive to a tenant (the bathroom was off the hallway, the whole parlor floor was accessible to the upstairs tenant, etc.) It will be smaller than your house even after our extension is complete. We will end up with 3 beds, 3.5 baths. I do question if leaving it at a two family would have been cheaper in renovating since then we would have been dealing with two full kitchens, but we would probably have been able to cut out one full bath. I’m also very glad we didn’t have to deal with sprinklers as I only hear horror stories about them. As I said, we’re doing very little fancy things to the house and the price is still as I mentioned. The one finish item that we’re spending a lot on is the original floors, but that’s essentially it. We are also not doing central AC and are using the mini-split system and are doing baseboard heat with electric radiant in the bathrooms which is worth looking into, imho- it’s not very expensive to install and they’re very energy efficient. If you have the floors ripped up anyway, it would be a nice touch for a rental. feel free to email me at the above if you have other questions. I’m happy to chat about it! We went into the project not knowing anyone who has ever done similar work and it would have been helpful to have had someone to bounce ideas off of.
mhquinones | 9 years and 2 months ago
@curated @carmenf Thank you both very much taking the time out to provide such a detailed response. I really appreciate it. Your posts were very informative, and has given me a lot to think about. If you don’t mind me asking both of you an additional question. @curated Are most of your projects either taking a multi family to a single family or single plus garden? Or renovating multi family for mix of owner use and rental? I’m just having some difficulty imaging spending 250 a sqft on rental units. If necessary to repair structural work, sure, I can see the costs rising. Sorry I know my question seems to be changing, but based on your response and others, I’m thinking of not doing a complete gut for the rental units, and just doing that for my duplex. @carmenf Similar question, are you converting entire building to solo use or more than one rental unit? @cate For those doing the 300k renovations I’m assuming based on the great responses provided by curated and Carmenf that those renovations are not doing major structural work? @xagor I appreciate your help, like I said I will definitely bring in my architect or another architect depending on the direction I go in at the early stage, but I want a more solid idea of what I want to do first. As I’ve heard on this forum change orders are where prices start going up, and that’s the same for drafting plans, etc. Thanks in advance for and replies, and thank you all for all taking the time out to respond. This has been extremely helpful.
carmenf | 9 years and 2 months ago
To echo what Cate said about sloped floors- depending on the condition and size of your house, you may be able to get away with sistering a few beams which is relatively cheap, or you may need to replace a bunch of them (more $$) or you may need to add steel to support them (most expensive). It’s really difficult to tell before you start your project. Lets say its a combination of sistering and replacing, which I think is pretty common. Once you start touching those joists, you may have to deal with the pockets they rest in, which are likely made out of brick. If that brick has never been touched, the mortar is probably failing. Moving the joists can cause the pockets to collapse which can cause the wall to become destabilized, which is a structural issue for the entire house. So then you move into repairing the brick, but while you’re at it it doesn’t make sense to just fix the bricks that are currently collapsing, and your structural engineer demands (rightly so) that you fix the entire wall. You just went from replacing one joist for maybe $500 to probably $4k+ in brickwork (that might be really low on a 4-story house) plus probably 3-5 days of time. For each walls where the joists sit. Hows that drain pipe? Probably made of clay and rotting. That’ll be $5k to fix and hook up to the sewer. Oh, it’s got tree roots in it at the street? And it also happens to hook into the sewer wayyyyy up the block? That’s $15k to replace. Hows your water supply looking? You’ve currently got one kitchen and two bathrooms and now you want 2 kitchens and 4 bathrooms (for example) plus a few washing machines. That 3/4″, filled-with-setiment water main won’t cut it anymore. You probably need a 1.25-1.5″ one. That’ll be $5-10k. New roof? Of course you were planning on a new membrane, but once the ceiling comes off you realize a few of the joists are rotted and need to be replaced, which involves touching the old membrane, which will crack and fail. Oh, and one deep layer of the old one has asbestos which will cost you $14k to abate beyond the roof work. That’s a fun problem! Nevermind those old existing extensions which may have insufficient foundations and which may leak like a sieve. There’s so much more. Foundation issues, any kind of digging, drainage problems, insufficient gas/electric, illegal DIY stuff done by previous owners… All of this is before you even start thinking about fixtures and finishes. That’s the part you can actually control- most of the rest of this stuff is necessary. When you discover a structural issue with the house (or an issue that will likely become structural in the future) you can’t just turn away because you want that fancy light fixture. Things like waterproofing and insulation are not fun and are expensive, but are required for your long-term investment. Luckily, we have pretty simple taste and we weren’t planning anything bonkers with the finishes and fixtures. If we went crazy with Waterworks and SubZero and all that jazz, we could have easily added another $100k to the finished cost. We are going higher-end than the cheapest $80 home depot toilet, but certainly not budgeting for a $1500 toilet, either. No custom plaster work, no crazy molding, very little restoration, which is extremely expensive and hard to do on a real gut job (keep that in mind, too- if your floors are sloping you likely have to say goodbye to your beautiful period plaster details.) I’m not trying to be a downer- this is just reality. In fairness, as I said, we did not go with the cheapest contractor we found (which came in right around 250 per sqft) but decided to go with a larger GC firm that offered a PM dedicated to our site who is on-site every day for most of the day (he opens and closes the site.) I am SO glad that we did- not only are we not equipped to manage a project like this, but frankly we are too busy to be fretting over every detail and wondering how the work is progressing. We trust him and the owner of the firm to inform us of problems but to generally take care of things. We’re over there a few times a week and have not been disappointed with the rate of progress. We get updated schedules every week, our bills make sense and are accurate down to the penny and we have someone to call or email who responds to us within hours. Seeing posts here about GCs walking off jobs or disappearing with deposits really drives home the difference between a cut-rate, potentially unlicensed, uninsured job and a job through a larger firm with a stronger reputation and track record. This path isn’t for everyone, but it’s working well for us and is something to keep in mind when people say “oh yeah, you can do it for $150sqft as long as you want to DIY half of it and manage your own subs!” If you are able to devote the equivalent of a full-time job to the project for a year, go for it. We were not. That was extremely long-winded. If anyone here wants more details about our experience thus far you can find me at greenwoodframed at gmail
curated | 9 years and 2 months ago
Prometheus here is some more info. You can basically tackle your renovation in one of two ways. First option is to piecemeal it like some of the above posters. Without a doubt your renovation will end up costing way more and take much longer than initially expected (as posters themselves admitted) Second option is to hire a team of professionals that will give you accurate figures that they can stick to and who can perform a quality renovation in a reasonable time frame. We have performed countless gut renovations with final sf pricing ranging anywhere between 200-800/sf. Typically a gut renovation, that is fully permitted/inspected, performed by contractors with real insurance coverage and which entails all new everything in the home (other than the 4 outside walls) starts at about $250/sf. The majority of the gut renovations we perform end up costing between 250-400/sf. Now keep in mind that what your home may not need a full gut renovation. You may only need to do a partial gut or gut just certain spaces with the rest of the work being more cosmetic in nature. Depending on scope can save you a lot. It sounds like many of the above posters quoting lower figures are not doing full gut renovations down to the 4 walls of the house. You definitely need to speak to an architect or designer and have a solid hour long meeting to determine what you are hoping to achieve and what the budget should be. Many architects while great at designing spaces are not good at budgeting/estimating so choose wisely in this area. I’ll also note that we strongly feel that hourly billing is not the best option for the design team nor the owner. Additionally you need to take into account all other soft costs involved with your project and your architect should be able to detail each of those with accuracy. On a true full gut renovation there should be no surprises like chimneys being lined, new roofs etc. If a proper plan and scope is set prior to any work starting all this should be known before any demo ever starts. Contingencies are rarely needed on a properly planned full gut renovation. Lastly you mentioned living in part of the house while work happens. If you are doing a true full gut renovation there is no way for you to live in the house. DOB won’t allow it nor would any good contractor. Feel free to contact us if you’d like to discuss further. www.curatedny.com