mini split systems and a legal question
Even though I’ve had my row house in Clonton Hill for over 22 years, until this past January, I never knew that the NYC heat regulations applied to me. What an alarming awakening! I had to run the heat at about 72-74 degrees to barely get my tenants’ bedroom up to the requisite 68 degrees during the day. Turning it down to 59 at night made it impossible for the temp to recover in the morning. Anyway, barely escaped getting a violation from HPD for the heat when my tenants called in a complaint. I really want to find a better solution for next winter. My house is currently being used as a 2 family. It has only 2 kitchens and is not to code as a 3 family. It has been used as such for at least 30 years to my direct knowledge. However, it is listed as a 2 family by HPD and a 3 family by the Dept.of Finance and has no C of O. As a 2 family, I understand that I am legally entitled to have a lease that says “Tenant pays their own heat.” As a 3-family I beleive that I am not legally entitled to do this. If I did go this route, where/ how do I insert that language? I have a lengthy Rider document already so, I could add it there. Obviously, there is a certain amt.of risk involved since my status is not completely clear. My plan is to leave my current heating system (forced air) in place and to have 1-2 mini split heating/AC units installed in the rental. This way, most of the heat would still come from me and if they were not warm enough they could use the heat from the mini split units. I am concerned about my plan for a number of reasons: I keep reading that they don’t work well at providing heat in really cold temperatures. Well, that’s exactly when they’d be most needed under my plan. Has this flaw been Corrscted yet? I’ve read all the previous blogs on Brownstoner but still don’t understand why they don’t work well when it’s too cold. If I did go forward with my plan, do I need to list the specific heating unti that the tenant is being provided with in the lease documents? How much risk am I really leaving myself open to since my “status” as a 2 or 3 family house is clouded and confused? I am hoping that my future tena tenants would have no motivation to “turn me in” so to speak. Finally, is there a mini split system and installers that come well recommended to do a great, reasonably priced prompt job? Thanks,
mmvh
in About Brooklyn 10 years and 5 months ago
11
Please log in, in order to post replies!
11 replies
steam_man | 10 years and 5 months ago
No problemo cmu. I’m here on the forum to help! It’s true, the tech has improved very quickly.
cmu | 10 years and 5 months ago
Thanks, steam man, my figures were from 2012 or so. Guess technology has improved!
resident2 | 10 years and 5 months ago
You house is either a legal two family or a legal three family. Just because the finance department has it listed as a three family in no way,shape or form does that make the house a legal three family house. The tax class is the same as two family however, so probably not worth making a fuss about the 2 or 3 family status with the finance department. Whenever you have tenants in NYC no matter how many units, if heat is included in the rent, the heat must be maintained to minimum legal standards. If plans are filed to install separate heat & hot water units, then tenants can legally control and pay for their own heat & hot water. No matter how many units there are in the building. There is no law that landlords must provide heat and hot water. Only that each boiler etc must be filed for and the fact that tenants are responsible for paying their own heat and hot water clearly be disclosed in the lease. Also that the tenant does not pay for heat and hot water for any other part of the building. IE their public hall way space on their floor. As for your particular case of you providing some heat, but if the tenant wants more you will provide a device for doing so at the tenants expense; I think is playing chicken. The heat you provide must be maintained to a minimum level for your tenant.
no-permits | 10 years and 5 months ago
just saw that you have forced air. installing a split system seems like an expensive band aid fix. there are other solutions: stop being stingy with the heat and keep it at a steady 68-70, insulate and seal gaps, replace windows, get new tenants, service the boiler, put a thermostat sensor in the tenants unit to average it with your thermostat in your unit, etc.
steam_man | 10 years and 5 months ago
cmu, Load is the amount of heat required per hour to satisfy a set temperature. Mitsubishi’s Hyper Heat units can supply 100% of the load at ambient temps of 5? F (ok i said 0 in my last post). They can supply 76% at -13? F. That’s pretty amazing. So to use your example a 24kBTU Mitsubishi Hyper Heat will supply 25,000 BTUs at 47? F, 25,000 BTUs at 5?F and 19,000 BTUs at -13?F
no-permits | 10 years and 5 months ago
don’t worry about the use of your house as a 2 or 3\. as long as you aren’t using it as a 4, you are okay. what kind of heating system do you have for the building? steam, hot water?
cmu | 10 years and 5 months ago
OP, it’s not a ‘flaw’…basic physics, the heat comes from the air, and there’s less of it at colder temperatures. I seriously doubt that an air-source heat pump can produce the same heat at 0 as at, say, 50\. Looking at a study, a 24kbtu Fujitsu produces 14.5kbtu at 0deg and 13kbtu at -10deg. Not bad, but not 100%. Of course, the term ‘required load,’ whatever that is, is not the same as actual output. Cate, heat pumps are water-SOURCE or air-SOURCE, but all use electricity. Air-source heat pumps are about 150-160% the cost of gas, not prohibitive but still expensive, especially considering the install costs. Finally, there’s a DIY Frederich mini-split which costs < 2000 for a 24kbtu unit, and I got the 12k version installed for $1000\. It theoretically does not need a permit as it's classified as an air-conditioner.
DouglasAlan | 10 years and 5 months ago
For the legal question, you should probably consult an actual attorney. Free advice from yahoos on a forum is worth exactly what you paid for it, and it could cost you dearly in the long run. For the cold apartment, my immediate suspicion is what Cate said–windows and cracks, especially windows. If you don’t want to be steamed out of your own home just to keep a minimum temperature in the rental, you should probably look into some basic repairs and renovations.
cate | 10 years and 5 months ago
I had always heard that if the tenant controls their own heat it is legal to require them to pay for it, but not if someone else controls it. Also I have heard the mini-splits that use water for the heat work well enough in NYC but not the electric units, and that the latter are also extremely expensive to run. Mini-splits are also quite expensive to install. What’s the issue with your heat? Is it insulation and air infiltration? Maybe you would be better off making sure windows close completely, caulking baseboards and wood surrounds, and perhaps blowing in insulation if you are in a masonry house. If it is a wood frame, it is a simple matter to wrap and insulate when you re-do the siding.
steam_man | 10 years and 5 months ago
mmvh, As a mechanical contractor I am happy to answer your questions on the technical aspects of mini-splits however I will leave the lease related questions to smarter people. Mini-split heat pumps work just fine in cold weather. The units we install (Mitsubishi) work at 100% of required load at outside temperatures down to 0 degrees Farenheit. They work at a slightly less rating down to -15\. The issue most people, including myself, have is not with the units but with the home’s insulation. If you have a very “leaky” home you will have a very difficult and expensive time heating the place. However, during the times you intend to use these as supplemental heat, I don’t think this will be too much of an issue for you. Feel free to call me to discuss. We are listed here in the Brownstoner Local Pros Directory under Molten Mechanical & Metal Works.
sqhaexgkh | 10 years and 5 months ago
My old apartment had baseboard heating and often when it was cold I needed to use the heat function on my Fujitsu’s to raise the apartment temperature. This was not an issue and the Fujitsu heated the room well and quickly. I generally put them on in the morning and once they heated up the room, could turn it off for the day as the baseboard did the trick. When I had an issue with the system (a braising issue that caused a leak), a few different companies couldn’t (or refused) to figure it out– I went with Mark at Mazgan Air Conditioning and Heating– he was fantastic. Hard worker, spent HOURS and HOURS even working late into the night to get the problem diagnosed and then ultimatly repaired. Would use him again in a heartbeat. good luck.