Homeowner's right with DOB?
Hello there, I’m in pretty serious trouble and at risk of losing my life savings in a home I’m invested in. There are issues with the DOB and we’re unable to secure permits, despite having already received “approval” for our job. I do not believe the professionals I’ve hired are working in my best interests, but the opacity of this process is insane. Does a homeowner have any rights at all? Can I attend a meeting with the borough manager or plan examiner? If not, could I attend along with a licensed professional? The architect of record here has completely stonewalled me and will not help at all. The frustrating part is that the errors that were made here were made by the DOB, but they refuse to correct them without going through the usual channels: PAA + PAA fee + plan examiners meeting. The architect refuses to do this and I am now at a total impasse. Do I have ANY options at all? Is there a way to file a complaint against the way the DOB has handled this situation? Appreciate any advice.
workerb
in About Brooklyn 10 years and 2 months ago
34
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34 replies
miamitileinc | 9 years and 6 months ago
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workerb | 10 years and 1 month ago
Thanks for the advice. I wish I had known to hire an expeditor in the first place. I mistakenly thought architects already use them and by hiring an architect, I wouldn’t need one. No one advised me otherwise, but I wish someone had. Too late now. Eric3872, the issue is that when the application was first filed and entered back in November, the DOB clerk mistakenly entered “masonry” when they should have entered “mechanical.” This was correct on the paperwork the architect filed, as you can see it in the original PDF. The clerk simply checked the wrong box. So while yes, it was a very stupid clerical error, the DOB borough manager is now insisting that this can only be corrected with a PAA to change from masonry to mechanical, and then a plan examiner’s meeting. We’ve been told this 3 times now. As I mentioned, a mysterious PAA was filed from within the DOB, presumably from one of the many people we’ve reached out to for help. Only problem is they filed it backwards. The PAA says to change “from mechanical to masonry.” That’s useless since that is how it already reads, and the problem is that we are NOT doing masonry. That didn’t stop the DOB from cashing out check for the $100 filing fee. In the meantime we cannot pull permits for the job since the list of required items includes things related to masonry, which we are not doing. The update is that last week I was contacted by someone in the community affairs department, who said he would try to sort this out. But I have not heard anything back from him since and I’m starting to lose hope that I will. I don’t know what to do next. Can anyone tell me what is involved in having another architect supersede the previous one as the applicant of record? At this point it may be our only option. The expeditor/architect we’ve been working with has already told us this would cost us around $5,000\. But I was also under the impression it meant we were basically withdrawing our application and starting over, which means we risk losing some of the approvals we’ve already gotten, and have to pay all the fees we’ve already paid (around $3k) all over again. Not to mention, it would take months. This is the worst case scenario for us as I don’t think we can afford to do all that. Is that the case, or would we be able to simply pay the architect a fee and pick the application up exactly where it is?
hooky | 10 years and 2 months ago
I’m so sorry to hear all of these troubles. I have to say though, being from the other side- architect/ builder- a good expeditor is worth their weight in gold. Many times you can work with your architect, but hire the engineer and expeditor in conjunction. A good expeditor is at the DOB all the time and knows everyone…. I would also research the expeditor on your own if you can. They will be your lifeline during your renovation.
eric3872 | 10 years and 2 months ago
You have not provided enough information for anyone on these forums with knowledge of the process to help you. You stated in a later reply that the Architect was releases from the contract but did not mention this in the original post. If the main issue is simply a clerical error as you’ve stated, there should be no reason to file a PAA. If you have been told a PAA is necessary, there must be more to the issue than is apparent based on the information you have provided here. If it is simply a clerical error, it may be something the Architect needs to address on a revised form, or it may not be anything the Architect needs to be involved in at all. It depends on what the error was. Either way, after the approval was entered into the system by the DOB plan examiner, the Architect would have had no way of knowing about a clerical error made after the fact. If your Architect needs to be involved in whatever the remedy is but is unwilling for whatever reason, you will need to hire a new one to supersede them as the applicant of record. If you do not have a list of items required for permit, you can obtain one from the DOB website which will be listed under the application number for your project. Get ahold of this list and ask your expediter to advise you on what is required to address any specific items on it. No one here can offer you advice of any substance without more specific information.
mc33433 | 10 years and 2 months ago
Just to add on the comments with the Digital HUB- filing through the HUB was absolutely the main reason for our delay. We found out later from others that the ‘new system’ was completely backlogged and causing lots of delays from everyone.
mc33433 | 10 years and 2 months ago
carmenf- The pictures probably took about 1.5 months to be honest. We had to order two sets- one from the 40s and one from the 80s. While frustrating, on the bright side it also is very cool to see what your house looked like back then. Another issue that we had that created a temporary impasse was that our neighbor’s building was over our property line 6 inches in the back of the property, and our building was over their property line 6 inches in the front. You’d think that pretty much balances out but it took getting the owner of this neighboring rental building to sign an easement agreement with us and getting it filed with the city.
mag | 10 years and 2 months ago
Workerb, I can only imagine what you are going thru. What a nightmare, please keep the forum updated. We are all rooting for you.
eriknau | 10 years and 2 months ago
there are several ways to avoid the DoB heartburn based on project size and complexity i.e. same day filing, self cert etc. if your job is relatively straightforward that is usually the way to go. its worth talking to your expeditor about these options in case pulling partial permits is not an option
chipito | 10 years and 2 months ago
workerb | 10 years and 2 months ago
Our expeditor did attempt to do this the last time we met with the borough manager and was turned down. I’m not sure why. Maybe because they first discussed the issue with the PAA and the error, so they would not allow us to pull permits knowing that there was a mistake on the open application? Perhaps we should just go back and try again.
zag0r | 10 years and 2 months ago
Workerb, if there really is a portion of approved work, no audits and no stop work orders, your contractor can pull a permit and begin work. Have you not talked to your contractor?
workerb | 10 years and 2 months ago
a2chitect, that is exactly what I tried to do, but our former architect was appalled that I would suggest that, acted like it was illegal and shady, and “as a professional,” refused to do it. I admit am not a professional but I don’t see why this would be illegal. We pull permits for our job and start work on all the other things we have approval for, and simply don’t do the work that was incorrectly added to job in the first place. In the meantime, we file a PAA to have that extra work removed. This must happen all the time when people change the scope of their project, or run out of money. I don’t see why this would be illegal. But in any case, without our architect’s cooperation, we can’t. transworld, this looks great. Unfortunately, it says the applicant of record must attend, so if the architect won’t agree to it, I guess we can’t. But I will try to ask.
concord | 10 years and 2 months ago
You can ask for a meeting with the DOB commissioner. There is a form you fill out…on eight floor. Commissioner’s office – if I remember correctly the guard inside the main room had the form. It is a crazy place…ultimately we did not need to meet with the commissioner as the plan examiner agreed to do his job (after he knew we had an appointment with commissioner). The tuesday homeowner session was a waste in that for a specific issue on an open file the examiner will say ?talk to your examiner’! Yes you can be there with the examiner and your architect, expediter, etc. – not that it will help as they will ignore you…even if you are 1000% right – ‘power trip’! Your architect is just not being professional – based on your side of the story anyway… Best advice…be calm when you meet the commissioner these jokers deal with this stuff everyday and their attention span is measured in seconds – much less for homeowners. Have all information available and just tell them what is wrong without ‘blaming anyone’…calm, calm..they have all the time to delay matters! Good luck.
transworld | 10 years and 2 months ago
FYI, you could try that: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/news/pr_get_back_to_building.shtml They reply to emails pretty quickly
a2chitect | 10 years and 2 months ago
What is the item that needs to be corrected before you can pull your permit? If you are approved, can’t you pull the permit under the approval and then work on the correction after you get going? This doesn’t entirely make sense.
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
OH and also yes, you get your first review sooner, but we didn’t get our objections for weeks and weeks after our review versus getting them immediately at the reviewers office. Its really 6 of one or half-of-a-dozen of the other. It’s all awful.
carmenf | 10 years and 2 months ago
FYI for all here- we filed through the HUB and still waited 100+ days for our first review. We were also told that basically no other office could assist us in-person or via phone because the HUB is “it’s own thing.” Too late now, but not sure if we would do the same again. They all suck, basically.
jcarch | 10 years and 2 months ago
To anyone reading this post and conversation, I highly recommend that anyone filing a project with the DOB do so through their Digital HUB, and not through the Brooklyn (or Queens) office. The Brooklyn office’s incompetence is staggering. We’ve literally had projects that have gone in circles for 5 months – it’s as if someone is playing an elaborate and cruel practical joke. We withdrew that project, refiled it from scratch with the HUB, and were approved in a couple of months. Personally I’m hoping never to set foot in the Brooklyn DOB again. The HUB isn’t perfect, but you can file documents electronically, rather than going in in person, the plan examiner does an initial review of the project with the architect before drawing up the objections (done via the web, to prevent bribery opportunities, and the plan examiner meetings after you get objections are 60 minutes long, compared to as little as 20 minutes in Brooklyn. I’ve only dealt with a few people over there, and while we’ve disagreed on some issues regarding the code or zoning, I’ve found them much more knowledgeable than the staff in Brooklyn. Even using the HUB, be prepared for things to take a long time. It used to take 8 weeks or so to get a typical Alt2 approved. Not I assume it will take 16\. Part of that is that the DOB could use more staff, part is the rush to file projects before the new code, and before the 421a tax abatement expires, but most of it is a mix of incompetence and simply not caring at all about serving home owners well. Sorry this is too late for the OP (I’m assuming they did not go through the HUB), but for everyone else, it may reduce the pain of filing from 1970’s Soviet levels of bureaucracy to standard NYC government levels of bureaucracy. http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/jamescleary
sqhaexgkh | 10 years and 2 months ago
Oh wow. Ok. Our house is uninhabitable so living in its is not an option. Wish me luck- and I wish you the same. Hope the process speeds up!