Grandfathered extension proof
I recently bought a house in BK and met with an expeditor about filing for reno permits with the DOB. He told me the ground floor extension cannot be found on 1912 nor 1929 maps, nor does it come up in his search of the DOB database. My lawyers say they did a basic search and the building had no open permits and since C of O was not a requirement till 1962, my building should be fine. They also said that if there is no record to be found, an architect can issue a certificate of compliance or some such thing. The expeditor says the lawyers are wrong, the C of O became a requirement in 1938 and there must be a record. The architect cannot issue any such certificate and if the DOB deems this extension non-compliant, then they will order me to take it down. The Seller’s agent claimed the extension was built in the 1930’s and is grandfathered in, but showed no record or any proof of this. Has anyone had this type of experience? Is there a database I can search? What steps can I take? I rather not go to the DOB and open this case up to scrutiny, since losing this extension will be a disaster. Any advice is much appreciated!!!
katdov
in About Brooklyn 10 years and 3 months ago
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katdov | 10 years and 2 months ago
Just wanted to update everyone and thank, once again, for your advice. I ordered the Sandborn maps and my extension first appeared on them in 1985\. I went to the expeditor who raised the issue initially and he said I was out of luck, I’ll have to take the extension down, it wasn’t up to code, etc… However, as per the agent’s advice at the time of purchase, I went to the DOB and pulled records and as luck would have it, they were all there. The extension was filed and legal in 1931\. For some reason it’s not on any of the maps, but it is filed and very detailed records are available. So this is a story with a very happy ending. Whew!
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
pig three – thank you, my expeditor ordered a search there, at least I think that’s what he did. I also ordered the Sanborn maps. Hopefully this will shed some light on the year of the structure. thank you all so much and fingers crossed!
pigthree | 10 years and 3 months ago
Seems like all valid and good advise. But have you gone to the dob and requested the paper file for your address? this is free, does not require giving any info or reason on your part. There was nothing on-line or on micro film for my 1880 house. In 2008 I was able to obtain my paper file after an hour or so. I’m sure things have changed a bit, but in my file was the original blueprint and stamped building permit. Point being, you do not know what you might find. I’m not sure why more people don’t start at this point.
tm07 | 10 years and 3 months ago
The Sanborm maps are at the Business and Career Library at Cadmun Plaza (by the court houses). They went to summer hours so they are open from 8 AM to 1 PM. The Brooklyn Collection at Grand Army Plaza (the main branch) has other information: [](http://www.bklynlibrary.org/brooklyncollection/our-collections)[](http://www.bklynlibrary.org/brooklyn-collection/introduction-building-research)Good luck!
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
carmenf – I understand. I am going to order an “official” map for the DOB. Thank you again for your help in this. Thank you all!
carmenf | 10 years and 3 months ago
Katdov- Other posters are correct about the maps being available at the library, however the DOB wouldn’t take a photocopy in our case. They would only accept the “official” copies (which are just larger copies with a stamped cover-letter, but I digress.) I don’t believe you can purchase official the Blecher Hyde maps which is why we went for the Sandborn. Our situation was about as cut-and-dry as one could be (the stable and porch are very obviously there from pre 1880) and we still got a lot of sass from the DOB on them. I would get as many official, stamped copies of everything possible to bring with you on your first review.
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
Carmenf – I was hoping the DOB will be logical and reasonable, but from what I’m hearing, it’s a racket. I will get more proof rather than less before going there. tm07 – do you mean the main library at Grand Army Plaza? I plan to go there Monday. Jim Hill – the extension was added in 1931, so the map you mention will not show my building. But I will save it for the future, it may prove useful. Thank you all, again, very much!
dazednconfused2 | 10 years and 3 months ago
You can also try the Belcher Hyde historic maps: http://www.historicmapworks.com/Browse/United_States/New+York/ They may not be perfect for your case as they were done in 1929, but they show every house in the boroughs at that time, is as much details as the Sanborns. Scroll down to Brooklyn, pick volume 1, scroll down to the Index of Volumes map to find which volume you’re in, go to that volume’s Index Map to find which plate you’re on, go that plate and find your house. Click on the image to zoom in, and take a screen shot. We’ve been able to use a print of the screen shot to establish the existence of extensions, and even the construction method (red=brick, yellow=wood frame). Oh, and they’re free.
tm07 | 10 years and 3 months ago
The Sanborn maps are available in the Business Library at Brooklyn Public Library: Sanborn Maps (Brooklyn Only) Are large-scale plans that include information such as the outline of each building, the size, shape etc. It also gives street names, sidewalk and street widths, property boundaries and house and block numbers. These colored digital maps allow for greater flexibility of use and improved viewing possibilities. Users have the ability to easily manipulate the maps, magnify and zoom in on specific sections. (Available at the Business & Career Library). The Brooklyn Collection at BPL (in the main building) also has lots of material and useful links. They are also available at the Brooklyn Historical Society and at NYPL.
carmenf | 10 years and 3 months ago
Katdov- you can order them here: http://edrnet.com/prods/sanborn-maps/ We needed copies of the maps to prove that our auxiliary building, which was a stable, and wood porch predate 1939 (both are original and predate the maps from 1880.) This is the only form of proof the DOB would take, although they actually tried to give us problems because the footprint of the stable looks slightly different from one map to another. Either way, this was the “proof” they needed and seemingly nothing else would do. You can find electronic versions of a lot of maps here http://maps.nypl.org/warper/ but you need an “official” copy of the sanborn for the dob. As a personal aside, I wouldn’t trust your lawyer with his assertion about the open permits being proof enough. The DOB is a nightmare right now- I would show up with more info and not less.
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
Carmenf – I am new to this, so did not know about Sanborn maps. The expeditor showed me 2 maps but I don’t know whether they are Sanborn or not. Will look into it, thank you! I have found the building on the DOB site and it lists an alteration:Extension dated 11/11/1931\. But no specifics. And the expeditor says it’s insufficient. He is ordering a search (which probably also translates into $). The lawyer claims the fact that there are no open permits should be sufficient. It’s now “he said/he said”.
carmenf | 10 years and 3 months ago
I’m confused- the seller’s agent is saying that it’s from the 30s but it’s not on the Sanborn maps? I doubt this- Sanborn maps are the bible for the DOB when it comes to grandfathered buildings and they are pretty comprehensive. Have you ordered the maps to check for yourself? You can access a lot of them online but to submit them to the DOB you’ll need an “official” (read- $200) copy.
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
Workisfun – this is very useful information. Thank you again! Calling them now.
workisfun | 10 years and 3 months ago
I would call he museum before going. Thee archives might be at a library branch instead. The museum works closely with the library system due to the nature of its historical collection. In fact the model of the watershed that is on permanent display belongs to the library system.
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
fmb78 – thank you for the link. I found what seems to be my building, but on high zoom it is so out of focus, that I can’t make it out. Will try going to the archives at Queens museum as per Workisfun advice. Thank you
fmb78 | 10 years and 3 months ago
Check here for aerial photographs: http://gis.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/ In the upper right hand corner where it says “Map Type” you can choose a number of years.
workisfun | 10 years and 3 months ago
i would call the queens museum and tell them you want to see the photographs of your house, that were used for the panorama. they will be able to direct you to an archivist, probably at nypl. a scaled model of your home (100ft:1in) is on the panorama!
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
Does anyone have any advice on how to find these aerial photographs online? Thanks again
katdov | 10 years and 3 months ago
Thanks everyone for all the advice. I was naive to trust what everyone was saying and perhaps my lawyer should have known better. Will follow up with all your suggestions. Really appreciate the support. We put all our savings into this and losing the extension would mean losing a huge chunk of our money. Thanks again!