Exposed Beams - Garden Level

Here’s a question for the y’all . . .The Garden level of our (2) Family brownstone was completely gutted (extremely cheaply) years ago before we bought it. It is essentially just one large open space with the kitchen towards the rear. We hate the ceiling. You can clearly see the outlines of the sheetrock panels and the HUGE can lights continue to depress us. We are CONSIDERING removing the ceiling to expose the beams, redo the electrical and then put in some insulation and slimmer panels of ceiling in between the beams so that you can still see them. Is this a very complex project or is it as straightforward as removing the ceiling, having the electrician do their thing and then installing the insulation and new ceiling panels? Anyone done something like this before? Thanks! fitch

fitch

in About Brooklyn 10 years and 6 months ago

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fitch | 10 years and 6 months ago

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This is all very helpful – thanks everyone. Eman, your ceiling looks great – nice job!

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 6 months ago

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wow eman your joists are in much better shape overall than mine. that looks tres chic french country farmhouse. Also FWIW this previous BS thread had some discussion on intumescent paint for joist fire protection: http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/forums/topic/fire-proofing-exposed-beams-in-basement

eman134 | 10 years and 6 months ago

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BTW am pretty sure that this conforms to code as long as the ceiling in question is part of a duplex isolated from the other (top) unit by a 2 hour ceiling..ie not legal for an isolated garden apartment, but legal for a duplex under a single unit

eman134 | 10 years and 6 months ago

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i did that myself 16 years ago…I cannot imagine a contractor doing this for any less than a kings ransom…first you have to run any electric lines to pancake boxes, then a layer of soundboard and finally a layer of sheetrock . I think that I used up 4 cases of caulk to fill in the sheet rock cuts and 6 gallons of KILZ to stop the bleed from the beams

NeoGrec | 10 years and 6 months ago

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Yes, nice Eman!

eman134 | 10 years and 6 months ago

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you mean like my garden floor ceiling?

NeoGrec | 10 years and 6 months ago

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I’ve thought of doing this too and appreciate the warnings about fire risk. That issue would need to be resolved with expert advice. But if you were to go ahead, have you considered painting the beams white after exposing them? That way, you can fill holes, conceal stains, and brighten your space. It’s a very personal thing but I’ve always liked painted exposed brick far, far more than in its raw state.

fitch | 10 years and 6 months ago

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This is interesting – thanks for the reply! I never considered that adding walls to break up the ceiling would improve the perception. I would love to have tin ceilings put in as well, I think that there were originally tin ceilings down there based on other houses I have seen. . .

fitch | 10 years and 6 months ago

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Thanks for the reply! Always nice to hear of someone that has actually experienced something that we are considering. I never really thought of how dark it would be and I agree that it is very likely that there will be issues with how the beams look in terms of holes and other things you mention.

thetinkerswagon | 10 years and 6 months ago

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thank you dorkofwindsor for engaging me in conversation instead of dismissing me here. I have been very busy these last few years and do not comment here unless I really think I have something to say that will add real value. I also do not really care if people take my advice – but to openly dismiss something so serious is uncaring to me and the other readers out there. if it were my house and I really had to do this, I would put rock between the joists on the floor boards above, not only for safety but it looks good. showing the floor above only darkens the room. at least if a fire started below people could walk above – but remember, those beams are dry and would not last long. Years ago, they used to round the square edge of the beams off to slow the spread of fire on them. My real concern for the OP is not the issue of loss of life – look, extra smoke detectors (put a few of them around; we have two on each floor in our house) could save lives – but if something went wrong and there were code violations, would the op want to take chances with the insurance co? It would be nice if an architect would weigh in here. I will add this though: in the 1990’s we had a fire in a building I worked in in manhattan. after the fire we looked around to see what improvements could be made. one of the things my boss did was have a contractor come in and put mortar on all of the exposed steel beams in the basement. his logic had been that if there was a fire, protecting the beams would save the integrity of the entire structure. obviously, I am not a fan of exposing beams. but before people do things which may run counter to current laws and safety codes, they should assess that risk in a way that a professional real estate person would and decide whether they want to take risks with life (or find ways to minimize that element of the risk- extra smoke detectors) or their insurance company, or the city. the exposed beams are not a serious violation (I have exposed beams in my basement now – but I am uneasy about the situation) in that they will not be the cause of a fire (where as letting gas run out of a pipe will be the cause of a fire) – but at some point people do commit serious violations and look what happens. Steve

bkk | 10 years and 6 months ago

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I as well strongly considered exposing all beams in the basement (which in hindsight was lunacy), and ended up going with standard sheetrock ceiling. For the reasons stated above it was the right move; the ceiling really does act as a great reflector of the little natural light I get in there. Also, unless your ceilings are 9+ it’s not going to feel right. I still wanted some natural wood feel down there so I ended up boxing out the existing beam running the length of the house (not suitable to be exposed) with old reclaimed lumber. Perhaps that is an option for you to get your exposed wood fix. Also, I used 4″ can lights which I feel don’t have that same “spotlight” feel as the bigger cans.

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 6 months ago

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steve – i wonder if they do rock between the joists (painstaking as that might be) if they could get a sign off from fdny. would that not give them an hour? surely the extra wide 7″ joists wold last that long? thinking out loud since i don’t know the answer

thetinkerswagon | 10 years and 6 months ago

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dork: and apparently plenty of people leave hot plates on at night and put illegal taps on gas lines. it is one thing to carry that sort of cavalier attitude in a single family; it is another in a two family with tenants living above.

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 6 months ago

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Perhaps the OP could find out if the garden is truly legal. Sometimes people have seen their top floor apt as not being convenient, and moved it down to the “garden” level – in which case the garden level is prob not legal (frequently they were dirt floors and one large open space, with slabs added sometimes after the war…or not at all). I just found it odd that it is one large open space yet a legal apt. If every neighbor on your block has a garden level apt then perhaps it is okay, but i have seem some real doozies that are hack jobs, not unlike the scenario that is being described here. Again, just a wild hunch.

cate | 10 years and 6 months ago

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A totally different idea: What about putting back some of the walls that were removed so the ceiling doesn’t feel so low (because it will be less huge) AND maybe covering one or a few of the ceilings with tin and a tin cornice where appropriate? You could still have big openings between the rooms. Could be a nice look.

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 6 months ago

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yes it is a fire hazard, however plenty of people do it. (apparently it is quite trendy). the main thing to consider is that when you open up the ceiling, you may find plumbing and electric cable that needs to be re-routed to stay out of your aesthetic desires. you just don’t know what you are going to get, which is basically the caveat for opening up anything in an old brownstone. the other thing you may find is that without the rock on a c channel, footfall vibrations may be louder as it transmits directly through the beam. I opened my ceiling after it was rocked and honestly its not all that pleasing – and boy is it dark now. Nails coming through the subfloor here, there and everywhere, splats of gunk that may have been when they poured the concrete slab, and years of “whatever” by previous owners. Holes drilled through joists for electric and plumbing, as well as various wires therough the floor here and there, not to mention previous water stains. Some areas are nice and some are god awful (esp below where there were bathrooms and kitchens). I’m planning to close it back up with a home theater acoustical fabric ceiling. Honestly its dark and dank and depressing, i think it would need to all be sanded and stained (a holy hell of a lot of work) but i don’t really think it would look appropriate unless the ceilings are at least 9′ because its just a big dark and ominous presence too close to your head. That’s my experience anyway. And wow is it dark.

thetinkerswagon | 10 years and 6 months ago

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I think of exposing beams as a fire hazard. I always thought the purpose of covering beams with 5/8″ rock was to slow the spread of fire. In some commercial spaces we have worked, we have used double 5/8″ rock in areas to which we wish to provide extra protection. since you mention that the house is a two family, I would be careful to check the codes. I would also be careful to not give my insurance company an “out” if there was a problem (mine told me that if something violates code and it can be determined to be the source of the issue, they can choose to deny the claim; so if there were a fire and the house collapsed and they felt the rock would have slowed it to the point of preventing it, they may take issue with it). maybe an architect will have better ideas than i. Steve

fitch | 10 years and 6 months ago

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Good point about the light – Thanks for your reply!

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A few thoughts. First – if you are going to infill sheetrock between the joists, that is a lot of cutting and a lot of care needed to fit each piece just right. Much more time, so higher labor costs. Also, it is always a fight for light on the garden floor. Exposing the joists will reduce how much light is reflected around the room.