Heat Rights for Co-op Owners?
I live in a small co-op building and in winter I’ve measured 58-59 degrees often during the daytime. I’ve already spoken repeatedly to the board about it. Isn’t the building subject to the New York City Housing Maintenance Code which states: Oct 1-May 31, from 6am to 10pm all apts must be kept at a…
I live in a small co-op building and in winter I’ve measured 58-59 degrees often during the daytime. I’ve already spoken repeatedly to the board about it. Isn’t the building subject to the New York City Housing Maintenance Code which states: Oct 1-May 31, from 6am to 10pm all apts must be kept at a minimum of 68 degrees when outside temps fall below 55? (the night temps are within legal allowable 55 degrees)
frost king makes ac/insulator tape in different sizes. makes a big difference on windy days with drafty windows.
Be wary of those who counsel complaints, attorneys and making a big fuss. While that may be good advice in a situation where you actually have some power, a small coop is usually operated as a lawless collective that brings out the worst instincts in people. Ask anyone who has lived in one. (You’ll find an occasional co-op that is friendly, but that’s unusual – that’s the dirty secret of small co-op life in NY.) And by small, I mean 4-8 units, self-managed.
Professionals don’t act like professionals when on coop boards – they act like power-hungry, tantrum-throwing small children whose idea of following the law is to say “make me.” You will likely find the fact that the heat law is on your side to be useless if you try to pursue it legally.
Which is why I counsel persuasion – be persistent, but tread lightly while doing so. You can get pretty far to getting your needs met, usually, with persistent persuasion – but it takes a lot of patience, finesse, lobbying, biting your tongue, and being creative in coming up with new ways to convince them when your first attempts don’t work.
Being female, as I assume you are from your 98-lb weight, also works against you – those telling you to make a big fuss are likely guys, and it can work for them, but it will not work for you – there’s a lot of difference in the way men and women are treated when they make demands. You won’t win with an agressive show, like guys can because they are perceived as threatening, and as deserving of things like heat – you will win by outsmarting them.
Once they’ve decided you’ve acted against them and they’ve decided you are the enemy (which they likely will do if you file a complaint, which is really the only mechanism you have under the law to try to get heat), you’ll never get anywhere with them again. And remember, you’ll need their permission to sell or sublet if you decide to go elsewhere. And they will make that hard for you to do, even if they claim to want you to be gone (they like having power to abuse.)
The take-away for others: don’t buy in a small, self-managed coop. I’m not sure I’d even buy in a large co-op again.
I can’t tell from your original post if your building has hot water or steam heat?
An equitable solution for your Coop to consider would be running a pair of pex tubing from the boiler to your apartment, on a separate zone with a separate circulator pump (this all assumes hot water) with a independent thermostat in your unit.
Although initially more expensive, the ability of the heating system to send heat only where it is required (your apartment)is much more efficient. The alternative of pumping too much heat where it isn’t needed (everyone else)just so you get adequate heat is a waste of energy and $$.
I would recommend a big fuss. Otherwise they will blow you off for another winter.
NYC heat season requirements are very clear, and they apply to ALL apartments covered under the HMC, not just to a few units per building: http://bit.ly/9MpuLZ
It’s likely your building’s heating system needs to be rebalanced. Adding a radiator to your unit is not a good idea. It won’t change the heat distribution and can actually make things worse. Make the affordable fixes you can in your own unit (weatherstripping, heavy curtains, etc.), and see whether it helps. Then, if the board remains unresponsive, consider following your own communications with a letter from your attorney.
It sounds like you need to butt heads with people who are content to keep things colder.
Read some of the heating/balancing posts. They would suggest you go to the hardware store and put #D vents on. Is it a one pipe system? I would persuade the lower floors to size down to a #4.
I live on the bottom floor and use the small #4 and I am fine all winter. If I switch to a #5 I bake.
Hang heavy curtains on the walls and windows. Check craigslist for them.
For fun: Leave the front door open a while to cool down the first floor. Run a space heater off the building’s power, either with a extension cord or tap off the light socket in the hall.
…new windows, you will either have to install them yourself, or convince the coop to pay to do them all (and likely reimbursing those who have already done it themselves.) While keeping maintenance low is a nice goal if you want to sell someday, it doesn’t mean you can’t pay for improvements with assessments instead of maintenance increases.
It seems like you most need to address how your building makes decisions. You need to get to meetings to get your neighbors on board to fix the problem, so that is is seen as a problem the building has to heat your floor, and not a problem you alone have. You will also need to be in a position to do the work that needs to be done to make your more comfortable (starting with bringing in a third party to give advice) – you can’t rely on the board to do it for you.
I have lived in many brownstone buildings, both rental and coop. Even with the replacement, dual-pane windows, it is hard to heat them to city (and comfortable) standards, as they were built without insulation. The typical renovation of a rental or co-op building, even when window replacement is done, does nothing to insulate the front and back walls where needed.
I have always been cold. I see this as part of the price I pay to live in charming old buildings.
In brownstones, if you like light, it is even worse, as the top floor is usually coldest, especially in the rear – it seems hard to get the heat up to the top floor.
It is very unlikely that your co-op will pay to insulate your more exposed unit. If you want insulation, you will likely have to pay for it yourself. Another radiator likely won’t help – it sounds like your problem is getting enough heat, for long enough, to the two radiators you currently have. Having more radiators won’t change the situation much if the heat provided to them is insufficient.
What you can do is to lobby for the thermostat to be moved to the second or third floor apartment – it shouldn’t be in the first floor apartment, as this will cause the furnace to cycle off before the top floor gets heated. Then, you need a set program of so many degrees at various times of day/night, and this should be posted in the hallway, so that changes can be requested by anyone, so that it can be tweaked until all are happy, with some inevitable compromising. This worked in my co-op, though the thermostat was already in the second floor unit when I moved in, and I (2nd floor) was very cooperative about tweaking and posting the thermostat program, as I knew from experience in similar buildings that the top floor was really colder than the rest.
Convincing your coop to do this may or may not be possible. It is certainly worth your trying to do. Perhaps you should get a consultant to come make recommendations (like moving the thermostat, and perhaps any cheap and easy insulation projects they can recommend — that hall skylight probably doesn’t help with the heating problem, and if it is the old high-hat kind, may actually be vented with large holes to let heat out – have someone look at it.) Also have the person check out your radiators. A person with the proper plumbing experience can look at all the radiators, and advise changes in size, etc. if that would be helpful. There are even thermostatic devices that can be added to some radiators themselves (I think to the steam kind – but I can’t remember – ask an expert.)
Advice from a third party might help convince the board. It will be more likely if you get the coop to agree to bring someone in, rather than calling them in yourself without consulting with the board first. (You can do work on this with the board as a volunteer, even if you are not on the board. Most buildings of your size in Brooklyn have meeetings of all the residents, and don’t focus specifically on the board members adressing everything. You may have more input if you move to having this sort of open meeting if you don’t have it already. If there is resistance to that, have you thought about getting on the board?) You will have to do the work to find the people to recommend though – which is good – you can talk to them first – don’t expect anyone in the coop to do the work for a problem that only you are experiencing – it rarely works that way.
What you can also do is what others in this sitution do – invest in some good space heaters, and pay for the electricity to use them. You do have control over that. You may or may not be able to convince your fellow coopers to provide you with more heat, but you can provide more heat yourself.
It is likely that no one else IS cold. Your apartment is more exposed. And it is on top. So it likely is much colder. You have to convince them of this. (Calling attention to your 98-lb frame will not be helpful – that makes it seem like you are the problem, not the temperature in the apartment. And I was always cold in cold apartments, when I had lots of fat on me, and when I didn’t.)
Also, you are likely colder because you stay home more than those who work out of the home (I’ve always been colder in my apartments when I stay home from work.) You need to think about spending some of your work time elsewhere, so your body has a chance to warm up. This makes living in an old, cold apartment much more bearable. Also, moving around warms you up, and you don’t generally don’t move around enough to warm up sufficently when you stay home – at least I don’t.) These aren’t what you want to hear, but are practical suggestions that will help while you try to convince your coop to make some needed changes. Good luck.
Also, filing a complaint against your own building will not help. Your best bet is to continue to work with them cooperatively. If you can’t get change, your best option, if you can’t live with space heaters, is to sell. (If heat is that important to you, then your next place should have been renovated so that you have your own furnace.) Having a record of a complaint may make it harder for you to sell – remember that your buyers will have access to board minutes.
And do your best to insulate your own windows. Lots of products exist – try a bunch. Window coverings (honeycomb shades, heavy lined curtains) are a much overlooked source of insulation. If you want
tybur6, it’s 7 units in the co-op. (2 duplexes plus 5 simplexes)
…zones? never heard of that. Apparently everyone is fine while I am absolutely freezing. everyone who comes over comments on how incredibly cold my apt is.
lalaland, thanks, I will try that this weekend. i really want to get a good thermometer so I can measure accurately. I try to work with the co-op, I asked them to please tell me what they have the thermostat set at and keep it there for about 3 days, then keep tweaking it up by a degree til I can tolerate it. I told them I’m not asking for 75 degrees, I would be thrilled if my place was 68 degrees, but 58-60 is unacceptable. They never really gave me a real answer. Once in a while I call the pres and ask him if he can turn up the heat and then he does, for right then. But then it goes right back to freezing soon after. I did notice that a few weeks ago when I had a long talk with vice pres about it, the heat seemed to improve for a few weeks, but now it’s back to be freezing again.
I want them to put the thermostat at a certain temp and leave it there from 6-7am to 10pm, then turn it down lower for nighttime. Keep tweaking it up by a degree every 3-4 days as needed til I can establish at what point it is comfortable in my apt. At the same time checking my radiators etc.
Hey DeLepp, what is AC tape? that sounds good to try instead of painters tape…
Butterfly, I don’t consider myself lucky at all. I weigh 98lbs and have very little fat on my body to insulate me so while it is 58 degrees in my apt, it feels much much colder than that to me. My hands are ice right now. I wear full outdoor gear inside. Hat, scarf, gloves, 2 prs of socks, 2 prs of pants, boots, many many layers. And I work from home so I am almost always here. The entire apt is one open space pretty much too.
And Butterfly, in the summer when we had that heat wave with 95-100 outside, my apt was about 105-110 degrees due to the tar that was smeared on the exterior wall outside my unit, as well as the giant skylight on the top floor hallway creating a greenhouse effect of the 4th floor. Plus heat rises. What fun. So I am comfortable for 2 weeks in september and 2 weeks in may out the entire year.
Leucas, I have approached them constructively. I am the one who usually comes up with money saving ideas for the building and I am not one of those people who just likes to complain because I am a miserable person. I like your attitude, Leucas, and that is the way I try to deal with the co-op. Like we are in this together.
mopar, the 2 radiators I have are fully on and they do get hot, it’s just that the heat rarely cycles on for me.
denton, for now I would hold off on complaining to 311.
vinca, thanks, I didn’t even know about “The Co-operator” I bet that site is full of good info. I read it over.
Petebrooklyn, the cause could be any number of things, for example:
1)my unit does not have another building next door as a buffer from the wind and cold. The surrounding buildings are 3 stories high and ours is 4. I’m on the 4th floor, facing the northwest, so the bitter northeast wind hits my unit dead on.
2)None of the units have insulation in the walls. The exterior is brick, then the walls are wood studs with the old wood and lathe covered in plaster. No insulation anywhere whatsoever.
3)The windows are not good. They leak a lot. The ceilings are probably not insulated either.
4)There are only 2 radiators in the entire 750sf apt and they are rarely on. Trust me I have them screwed fully open.
5)The thermostat is kept inside a 1st floor unit and controlled entirely by the president of the co-op. Obviously there is the issue of the boiler being in the basement so the lowest units get hot first, by the time my radiators get hot, the 1st floor unit gets hot enough so the thermostat shuts off the whole thing so while maybe the 1st floor had heat going for a few hours, mine maybe was on for an hour or so and can’t get fully warmed up, cools down faster and is just always too cold. It is never comfortable.
They say that nobody else is cold. Just me!
According to the official paperwork of the co-op, the corporation is responsible for purchasing new windows, but this has not been followed. At least 2, maybe more units have replaced windows and paid for it themselves because they didn’t know any better at first, then some said this way is better to keep our maintenance low. Same with electrical. Building is supposed to pay for, but anyone who has done it pay for it themself.
I asked them if they won’t turn up the heat could they put in another radiator for me or insulate my walls and they laughed at me and said I had to pay for it myself, that the building wasn’t responsible for “re-outfitting my entire apt.”
re:”bleeding” etc, I don’t know who’s responsible. They have had some plumber in here for another reason and I had him stop in to ask pricing on a new radiator installed+he said about $800 but they want me to pay for it. The 58-60 temp I was referring to was recorded throughout last winter, not this winter. My thermometer dropped and broke since then so i have to get a new one to measure this year. can anyone recommend a good type that is exact and accurate?