Heating System Evaluation?
Any recs on someone or some company who would do an evaluation of a heating system? Basically, help to figure out why top floors aren’t getting enough heat, but also for an efficiency review to make sure things are all working as they should be. The previous owner used Vigilante- anyone with experience with them?
Any recs on someone or some company who would do an evaluation of a heating system? Basically, help to figure out why top floors aren’t getting enough heat, but also for an efficiency review to make sure things are all working as they should be.
The previous owner used Vigilante- anyone with experience with them?
Not to pile on, but last November I asked Gateway to come out and give me a proposal for an oil to gas conversion. John came, took a few photos, looked around. I never heard back.
But you paid anyway and complained here? Give me a break.
I was looking for a new plumber and called Gateway to check our heating system before turning it on For $250.00 they were here about 8 minutes and said everything was fine I asked about checking the draft to assure nothing was blocking the chimney. They responded that involved too much work.I will not call them again
sorry, hot air furnaces are not my field
I have lots of them.
Here’s an extreme case where I’d spent hours trying to find out why the system was performing so poorly and when I did, I simply sent a proposal for a boiler replacement.
The co-op’s ground floor resident called foul on my wanting to “sell them a new boiler instead of fixing the problem”.
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Mr. X,
First please let me explain why I sent you the boiler replacement/conversion estimate.
Just as the measurement of any volume of water can be expressed in gallons or pints, the volume of steam is measured in square feet.
A heating system can process, i.e. convey and condense, only a finite and specific amount of steam which is determined by the total surface area of the exposed piping and radiators.
The output of the heating plant, or boiler, must match that value as closely as possible, best within about ten percent.
After measuring all the radiators and piping throughout the building, I did all the necessary calculations and came up with a required 577 sq. ft. of steam at the maximum.
Then after surveying the heating museum in your cellar, it took much research to find the output of the existing boiler which carries no ratings label of any kind.
Here’s what I found from the long-defunct manufacturer of the Mills 20 boiler:
This was built as a hand-fired boiler, meaning it was made to burn coal and at one time, it was someone’s job to stay on the premises and shovel coal into it as the heat died down throughout the day.
At some point around 1940, some smart people devised a way to retro-fit boilers like yours with oil burners. They worked well but tended to increase the boiler’s output by somewhere around 200%-500%. Long story short(ish), with the equipment you’ve got there, your heating system is trying to squeeze approximately 1,100 square feet of steam being made by the boiler every hour through pipes and radiators made to handle 577 square feet.
We simply can not have a smart conversation about balancing your steam heating system with the equipment you’ve got in place.
The boiler runs at about 55% efficiency (as opposed to 82%, new boiler) and is grossly oversized for the system it serves. These being the what they are, it will never produce a predictable heating condition.
Second, what seems to be happening is that since your space is closest to the boiler, it is likely the greater pressure on the bottom two floors is closing your radiator’s air vents and sending steam first to the upper floors which offer less resistance to how the steam moves; higher pressure toward lower pressure.
There are some band-aid fixes we can try, like installing a low-range pressure controller which will only allow the boiler to run a little at a time, giving your radiators a chance to receive steam before their air vents close by the high pressure, and we can try adding some more vents to your radiators to allow them to breathe longer, but none of that work would carry any guarantee. Moving the thermostat as you suggested is not likely to help, but would certainly burn more fuel, as your intention is to get the boiler run longer.
In this case, leaving the thermostat where it is and simply raising the setting toward 75 degrees would simulate moving the location, if you want to give it a shot. But I don’t think the work involved in rewiring it to different space would justify the cost.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Thank you for following up with this,
John Cataneo, LMP
VP
Gateway Plumbing & Heating
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
718-980-0909
212-980-0909
eman,
Do you work on hot air furnaces? (Master Plvmber has previously indicated that he doesn’t).
MP, do you have an example like this in for a one pipe steam system? Thanks…
Not to toot my own horn, but the fact is I live for Heating System Evaluations.
Seriously.
Here’s a recent simple one I did for a small coop in Park Slope:
EVALUATION:
Please Note: There is a short section of black rubber hose connecting the heating system to the domestic water system. This cross-connection is dangerous, unlawful and will contaminate the building’s drinking water supply if left in place.
We advise you to remove the hose, close the valves to which it is connected, and address the condition which it is intended to correct, with sound and compliant means.
The boiler is a Weil-McLain PCG-9 with an input rating of 280,000 BTUs and an advertised efficiency rating of 80% at the time of manufacture, which was within the years 1967-1971.
Due to its age, as it was well-maintained it should be operating in the 65%-70% efficiency range now.
The boiler currently shows no evidence of leaking water or flue problems, though it is recommended that chimney cleaning be performed by a trusted contractor of The Client’s choosing.
This system was originally built to work without a pump and was called a gravity system.
The large-diameter pipes in the cellar were meant to allow for the free movement of heated boiler water to rise to the upper floors, while cooler water dropped down to the boiler with very little restriction.
This was an inefficient system designed at a time when energy costs were of little concern. The advantage of the design was the lack of moving parts required to move the heat. At some point, the boiler was changed and a pump was added to speed the process along.
Unfortunately, as is most often the case with this type of incomplete alteration, the pump serves to do little more than force the water through the first few radiator connections on the lower floors and diminishing flow to the high points in the system.
In the 1970s and ‘80s, heating industry professionals began experimenting with how to make this common system perform competitively in a market where interest in higher efficiency was growing rapidly.
The solution was to install a simple system of electronic controls that would allow for properly-sized low-wattage pump(s) to run throughout the heating season, an outdoor temperature sensor to measure daily seasonal changes in climate, and a device to fire the boiler flame only as much as needed.
The result is called an outdoor reset system, which is a proven method of greatly increasing seasonal efficiency by significantly lowering fuel usage, even while using an older, standard-efficiency boiler.
An internet search of “outdoor reset†will undoubtedly bring many results on the topic, but a quick and easy primer can be found here: http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000212971
Gateway Plumbing & Heating strongly suggests considering the installation of the following controls to maximize comfort and efficiency:
1. Tekmar 260 http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/prod/260.shtml
2. Two, Taco model 0012 circulating pumps.
To realize the benefits of the new controls and pumps, the boiler piping would have to be reconfigured and three pumps added: one pump would feed the heating riser pipes supplying the front radiators and another would feed the rear risers. A third pump would deliver heat from the boiler to the main distribution piping common to the whole building.
Please see complete detailed proposal attached for pricing of this upgrade.
Additional:
Some occupants stated individual radiator shut off valves were not working.
The price to replace these, if done while the system is drained of water, as part of a larger task is $X per radiator.
It may be that the rubber hose cross connection is in place to correct for a lack of adequate pressure in the system to maintain the flow of water in the upper floor(s).
Installation of the proper, code-compliant pressure regulating device is: $X
Please let me know if you’d like to follow up on any part of this evaluation or would like more information on the proposed upgrades.
Thank you,
John Cataneo
VP
Gateway Plumbing and Heating
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
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I’m happy to say these homeowners agreed to most of the terms of the proposal and are finally about to start saving money by reducing fuel usage considerably.
My first choices would be MasterPlvmber (Gateway) and Eman, both regular contributors to this Forum. I do not recommend Vigilante. They were good way back when; not so anymore.