Proper Etiquette with Contractor
I am new to the dance and I would like to get some advice on what is the proper way to negotiate with a general contracter regarding a big complicated renovation at a house. I saw two contractors so far and one says he needs a minimum of x grand for the bathroom and the…
I am new to the dance and I would like to get some advice on what is the proper way to negotiate with a general contracter regarding a big complicated renovation at a house. I saw two contractors so far and one says he needs a minimum of x grand for the bathroom and the other says he can do it for half that amount. One says he can fix the old hardwood floor and the other says it will look like crap and I should tile it. One says he can paint over the old kitchen formica cabinets and the other says says it will not work. They both have very different opinions and prices about everything. Also, when I asked one to give me a breakdown on the cost of each job he says he can do it all for a certain amount but if I make him break it down it will cost twice the amount. Is this how it works? Is it not proper to expect a price breakdown for each job big to small? Also, they both want the entire job while I feel like farming off some aspects of it to different people if I can get a better quote on windows or floors for instance from someone.
My advice would be to hire an Architect if you are doing more than replacing fixtures, finishes and windows (if not Landmarked).
If you must do it yourself- Ask for references and visit their work, include at least two more recommended contractors into the bidding process, provide them with your own breakdown (by trade) and ask them to fill in the costs this way you can compare apples to apples.
General Contractors want the entire job for two reasons- more money for them and also they can control the coordination and timing of the Subs. If a job is isolated, for example replacement of windows with no other work that is associated with that, the owner hiring Subs separately is done all the time. Although, you should feel you have enough trust in your General Contractor to provide you with good Subs at competitive prices.
Lots of good advice above. A few additional points:
1. A good architect will organize the bid and make the scope of work clear. This will make it much easier to compare bids and suss out contractors who aren’t up to the task.
2. If you are not comfortable with a contractor, don’t sign. If you are not comfortable with any contractor that bid to date, you need more contractors. Don’t settle.
3. Throw out the low bid if it is waay low, unless you have excellent references you trust for that GC. If the bids are all fairly close, low bid doesn’t mean an underbid.
3a. Make sure the GC has resources and isn’t going to be stuck while waiting for payments from you.
4. Make sure your scope of work is typical for the contractor you pick. If it’s a whole house erno, don’t go for the guy that only does kitchen/bath renos and co-op jobs.
5. Keep clear lines of authority about who reports to whom about what.
6. Don’t use a GC’s architect.
7. Have the contract set a general rule about who buys what, but you can make adjustments on the fly later.
For the Albemarle reno, we initially hired an architect to plan out *only* the gut kitchen reno, transforming it from Dr.’s exam rooms back to the kitchen and returning a back staircase to it’s original locale. As the scope of the project broadened and got more complicated we hired her to manage the whole house reno, and boy are we relieved we did! The way she organized on paper the details of the work to be done in each room would have taken us many months and we would have made a royal mess of it. Each space in the house has a number and each number has a flow-chart column with every outlet, light switch, wall treatment, floor treatment, etc. accounted for. There have been addendums and changes, of course as each contractor weighs in with recommendations. Everyone bidding is literally on the same page, so we can, as BHS mentions, “compare apples to apples.”
We’ve been in the bidding out process for the past couple of weeks — perhaps it would be post-worthy on the reno blog?
Here are some people that may be able to help you that I’ve heard speak MANY times at the Anatomy of a Brownstone seminars over the years at City Tech in downtown Brooklyn.
First is Debra Salomon who owns 408 group design. Obviously, a designer who can help with your space and works with lots of architect’s. I’ve taken a bunch of hands-on home repair classes with her also at City Tech. Definitely may be a good starting point as far as getting ideas. http://www.408groupdesign.com 408 Pacific St. 718-802-0272
Also from the Brownstone seminars are architects husband and wife Jill & John Bouratoglou. Saw slide shows of alot of the renovation work they have done at the seminars. Very nice. 303 St. Mark’s Ave http://www.barchpc.com 718-783-7848
Sometimes you can get good vibes talking to and dealing with people, and I got that feeling from these people hearing them speak many times and talking to them after the seminars, even though I have never used their services. I do hope that this info may help and wish you luck.
OY! Where to start?
Without detailed plans and specifications you are not really getting competitive bids. You are just asking contractors to do their best to cheat you.
Face it, you have no idea what you are doing.
Get help. Go to a building professional. An architect, an enginner, an owner’s rep.
OK?
you will thank me.
you will save money.
Everything should be itemized and listed in a contract which also specifies an end and start date and, if appropriate, “to code.”
As for the wood floors, do not listen to this guy who says to tile them. That is ridiculous. Is this in the kitchen only or all through the house? What kind of wood is it? What is in fact the actual condition of the floors, as far as you can see?
The GC is responsible for coordinating the subs and it is worth the price IF you find a professional, experienced, honest GC, and a poor one will make your life hell. But if you choose your own subs you will have to coordinate them AND the GC and therefore the GC is not responsible for the oversight you are paying him for, unless he specifically agrees to manage your subs. You will eventually need a very very specific spec document that you agree on with the GC that becomes part of your contract. However, GCs get burned when they put too much time into the bidding process so they want to put as little admin work into the breakout as possible until they’re pretty sure they’re getting the job–and only then when you insist. But knowing what their bid price is for is critical to comparing apples to apples. The way I handled this was to put together a one-page spec of the work I wanted them to bid on, and I asked them to break out their bids by trade (demo, plumbing, electrical, wall and ceiling repair, roof etc.). Most of them could do this verbally even if they weren’t doing it on paper. I met with 5 contractors after speaking to more and made sure I had 3 solid bids from people I liked.
Re the hardwood repair vs. tile and painting formica cabinets, you really have to ask a ton of questions and make the decision yourself. How is the guy going to repair the hardwood? Why does the other guy think it will look terrible? Maybe tile is more cost effective but hardwood is really what you want and you like the “patina” that may look unfinished to the contractor. Get more people in there to look at it and ask a bunch of questions and you’ll start to get a sense for the truth and your options.
Make sure you understand the full scope of the work involved (installing protection for floors and woodwork, demo costs, disposal costs, permits and fees, materials handling costs) and remind each of the contracts that you want them to include all of these costs in their bids to you. They will gain comfort that they aren’t going to be underbid by somebody who’s leaving off this stuff without your realizing it. Ask whether a foreman or supervisor will be on site at all times.
Ask how long they est the project will take and how many other jobs they’ll be working on each day.
I am in the process of building a weekend house and many of the general contractors that bid on our project would not provide a detailed cost breakdown unless and until hired. Of course, none of them were hired. The reason offered was that they did not want to be subjected to negotiation by the homeowner who in essence seeks to take the low cost estimate for each item among all the bids and to price the whole project accordingly. While I can understand the logic, it is impossible to evaluate the quality of materials, reasonableness of budget, desireability of doing certain projects, etc. without an itemized bid.
I would not recommend throwing out the lowest bid. What you should do is make sure you have narrowed down your contractors to a qualified bidder’s list. As long as everybody on your list is qualified, the lowest bid should be the obivious choice. However, there may be other factors that do affect your choice. It would be wise for you to create a bid leveling sheet that places factors for what is most important to you (i.e. cost, experience, insurance, etc.).
Search through the forums and directory here to find contractor recommendations. In addition, I would not recommend going through a general contractor because you are stuck with them completing everything. There are going to be certain items that you would like procured and the contractor may or may not have the best connection to get the lowest price from the fabricators. I recommend you be your own general contractor and procure each trade separately. Its going to be more logistics on your end but I believe it will be more cost effective and worthwhile.