Proper Etiquette with Contractor
I am new to the dance and I would like to get some advice on what is the proper way to negotiate with a general contracter regarding a big complicated renovation at a house. I saw two contractors so far and one says he needs a minimum of x grand for the bathroom and the…
I am new to the dance and I would like to get some advice on what is the proper way to negotiate with a general contracter regarding a big complicated renovation at a house. I saw two contractors so far and one says he needs a minimum of x grand for the bathroom and the other says he can do it for half that amount. One says he can fix the old hardwood floor and the other says it will look like crap and I should tile it. One says he can paint over the old kitchen formica cabinets and the other says says it will not work. They both have very different opinions and prices about everything. Also, when I asked one to give me a breakdown on the cost of each job he says he can do it all for a certain amount but if I make him break it down it will cost twice the amount. Is this how it works? Is it not proper to expect a price breakdown for each job big to small? Also, they both want the entire job while I feel like farming off some aspects of it to different people if I can get a better quote on windows or floors for instance from someone.
Masterbuilder, I agree with you, any competent builder is going to be able to break down the costs on a project. Whether they want to provide the home owner with those numbers is a different story. I can’t think of any reason to provide a cost breakdown other than to open up a door for haggling. Many contractors aren’t interested, especially for something that sounds like a relatively small job.
Any contractor not willing to explicitly break down an estimate may have minimal project management skills, which are essential to controlling the job.
Similarly an architect who does not draw everything down to acute and accurate details may have minimal design management skills, also essential. And they rarely do because they lack the hands on skills necessary to visualize coordination at this level. It is left to the contractor to “verify in field” that the plans will actually work and the shop drawings (the ones that actually work) are left to be furnished by others.
Do your research, be patient and make informed decisions.
A lot of contractors won’t give a breakdown on the bill specifically to avoid some of the pitfalls that have been mentioned here. Many people given a detailed bid will cherry pick, taking out certain parts, leaving others. If you think about it logically, why would you need a detailed bid other than to get involved in the process? So when I quote you X amount for demo, you want to save a few bucks (understandably) so you call up cousin Joey to help with demo. Only it takes a little longer than expected and now my scheduling is thrown off. Or you ripped out something that I wasn’t planning on replacing. Or you tell me that you’re done and I schedule my workers only to find that your idea of done and mine are slightly different and I have to work while you rip down a ceiling in the same room as me. Most contractors don’t want to be bothered with these scenarios. If you’re talking about a large job, that’s a little different, but if it’s that large of a job you usually have a PM who takes the place of the GC. Lots of jobs have both, as well as an architect. If you’re talking about painting cabinets, tiling a floor, that’s not a large job to many people. I am not making money by breaking down bids, and when I go for an insurance quote, I don’t ask them what part is filing, xeroxing, administrative, etc. I either take the quote or I don’t.
Bottom line, what’s it going to cost and is it worth it. If you are on a tight time line, you want to consider that as well. Subs are going to move regular clients to the top of the list over one time clients. It’s been my experience that people who get involved in the process can save money, but they do add time and aggravation to a project. There’s a lot to be said for letting someone handle the job from start to finish. I’ve known a lot more people who have ended up happy with this approach than I have people who have been happy after getting overly involved with the process.
On the plus side, the more you do it, the easier it becomes and you will pick up some real skills by the end of the project.
Doing a large renovation requires professionals. stay away from semi skilled ” craiglist ” workers. They belong on a crew taking direction from a foreman at the very least.
As for a GC, that person is the one and only go to person you deal with. the good thing is, if you have any questions or concerns , the GC takes all of your feedback.
Too many people these days are relying on computer research and blogs to self diagnose what’s gonna happen on a job site. The proper sequencing isn’t meant for those ” new to the dance “. Just wait and see when the carpenters are cutting wood in the area where the painter’s are trying to put on finish coats. Those battles are hilarious. If you’re not the owner.
You’ll save alot of time and aggravation if you sit back and watch a pro take care of the job. So what if it costs a little more than the middle of the road or lower priced contractors/workers. It will be done right and over the long haul you won’t have to hire other people to come fix the mistakes.
As for hiring all the subs yourself, you better check and see if you ever spent a few weeks or months on a new construction / renovation job site. You have to know what makes workers tick on a daily basis. You must know sequencing and logisitics. The honeymoon phase ends quickly.
Trust me on this, this is a large emotional and costly undertaking no matter how you look at it. Working spreadsheets and doing google searches only goes so far until your lack of experience with logistics on a construction site will tear your mind apart.
By the way, been working on job sites since 1983. Seen just about it all, but I learn something new every time. I am willing to hear anyone else’s experiences and insights, as I am always looking to learn a different way which may be better than the way I learned it.
Good luck with whatever you choose!! If you take on the GC role yourself, find someone who maybe can consult you somehow, even if it costs a little money.
I agree with Rocketjen about not hiring an architect unless this is really a major and complicated renovation project involving major bucks. Hiring an architect makes little business or construction sense for small projects. And hiring a lawyer to assist in such a project would be an additional waste of resources. I’m an in-house lawyer that occasionally handles some of the legal work with building out of commercial space my employer either owns or leases for office space. These are very expensive construction improvements, which do require the architectural and engineering services of professionals, at considerable cost to my employer.
I’m from out of town and I’ve recently hired a GC to renovate one floor of my family’s brownstone, a gut renovation that will likely cost around $100K. In scoping out the project, I went to three GCs and obtained three bids from them. I got two of the GCs from neighbors who had used the GCs before; and got the other one from I friend of mine who used the GC for major renovation work on a brownstone in Harlem. I also had an architect walk the floor with us to give me a ballpark idea of how much it would cost for her to develop plans and specs and handle permitting and construction draws for me; I thought the $15K architectural services price she quoted for me was too much and the efficiency I might gain by employing an architech would not be that significant, when considering this would be a simple gut renovation for us, though we are moving around a kitchen and a bathroom. (I recognize that there might be some construction savings by having the contractors bid against the specs and plans an architech prepares for the renovation work.)
I do anticipate there might be some change orders as construction progresses but I feel comfortable that the GC will be reasonable with us because we do anticipate additional, major work on the building, and this is a carrot we will have dangling over the GC throughout his work on this project. BTW, we did not shop bids from the contractors, but we did mention to the two contractors running neck and neck with each other on price and quality, to give us best and final offers — you can really negotiate exceptional prices in this market from contractors these days — the construction industry is really hurting these days, with the economic downturn. One thing I would suggest is hiring a competent building inspector before you finally negotiate the bid for the renovation; walking the building with our inspector and having him review some of the bids to get a ballpark idea of feasibility and price was very helpful to us.
Vanburenproud: Your advice in both posts is priceless!! I’ve not heard it put quite that way before(the 2nd post, that is), but you are on it! This may be tough advice for the OP or anyone who is anxious to get started on a “big complicated renovation at a house” but it couldn’t be any more truthful. Look, study, study some more, look again and revise, plan, plan, plan, and be real clear about your destination . . . before you leap!
One more pt. my husband works in construction managment/ facilities (like I said in my other post above) and while he can get itemized bids he rarely asks for them b/c of change orders. So for example if the contractor quotes you 1000 for demo but demo is actually 1100 the contractor can submit the bill for the 100 and add it to the cost. Whereas if you do one bulk price/ quote and YOU ARE very very explicit with your scope of work and the contractor agrees with your scope then no price changes should occur. However, in our reno I had originally planned to keep a light in our bathroom. I decided to change it. We did not get charged but this had to do with my contractor and maybe the change order… so either way go with a good contractor. And I think many professionals would steer you away from an itemized. May get you in the end.
Something sounds fishy to me and while I understand people’s inclination to hire an architect I don’t think it is needed unless you are doing MAJOR structural work. My husband is the commercial business and we recently underwent our own big reno and dealt with a great guy who gave us a great deal. When I asked him how he said he wants to be busy. I was wondering how he could go so low comparably and didn’t trust his skills so he took us to his house in Staten Island and showed us the before pics and obviously we saw the after. I met his family (3 kids, wife etc). His rational is if I have jobs every day I will make money and get referrals and while his taste is not my taste his guys were skilled and they did everything I wanted (and b/c there is so little work out there many of them had worked in more expensive locations previously). My pt is if you have a guy or guys who are giving you the run around look elsewhere – there should always be a way (pretty much we did run into some issues). While I do not think my contractor necessarily understands the yuppie dynamic or design he gets it done and is trustworthy. Give me a shout off forum if you want a rec. jmg2017 AT yahoo DOT com
One more thing about this post being framed in terms of etiquette:
Often I think in terms of etiquette when I am feeling somewhat powerless about what other people are doing. If you are framing this in terms of etiquette because you don’t feel powerful, stop and don’t get any more bids until the power dynamic changes for you. It’s your house, you’re paying and you’re the one who has to live with the work for the next twenty years. You’re the boss.
Nothing is more uncomfortable for an honest dealer than a client who misunderstands the power dynamic. It’s a harbinger of terrible misunderstandings and client unhappiness. Busy, good contractors have every reason to punt on your bid if you are putting out a strong powerless vibe. It’s difficult and dangerous to work with someone who is in charge, but can’t actually *be* in charge.