The Need for Construction Plans?
Hi. I need some advice about the necessity for construction plans. A partner and I recently had an accepted offer on a four story brownstone which we’ll be inhabiting as double duplexes. It’s a gut reno–electric, plumbing, roof, HVAC, facade, some layout reconfiguration, adding kitchens and baths. We are able to afford it since we…
Hi. I need some advice about the necessity for construction plans. A partner and I recently had an accepted offer on a four story brownstone which we’ll be inhabiting as double duplexes. It’s a gut reno–electric, plumbing, roof, HVAC, facade, some layout reconfiguration, adding kitchens and baths. We are able to afford it since we got a good deal as long as we keep the reno costs from snowballing out of control.
So far, we’ve gotten estimates from 5 different contractors based on a set of specs where I listed everything I could imagine we might want. But I didn’t provide a specific layout (since we don’t quite know it yet) beyond a kitchen and two baths in this unit, etc, nor did I specifiy the type of boiler or flooring, etc. The estimates ranged from 300k to 585k (for 3000 square feet).
Based on recs from this forum we are thinking of using Scott Schnall to submit BOD plans, but a number of architects I’ve spoken with have made the case for needing construction plans too. I was hoping that I could just hire an architect for some design help because frankly we can’t budget much more than 5k for architecture fees on top of Schnall’s 5k for submitting permits (including HVAC). I was hoping that an experienced contractor could work without them, but according to the architects I spoke with, that route will likely result in inaccurate bids for the job and a lot of change orders, which is exactly how reno costs can spiral out of control.
So now we are trying to decide whether to cough up the dough to hire an architect to draw up construction plans or just hire them for our 5k budget for design help and some guidance on choosing heating systems, flooring, etc, or whether a good contractor can offer the guidance and design help we need. Sorry for the length of this post!!! But I’m hoping that those of you with reno experience can share some of your experience.
Gratefully,
LucyBB
perfect spot for my comment,
youve got all the reasons needed to hire the right architect for your needs. its like going to a pet shop to spend 300k on a fish tank and thinking you can pick out a bunch of stuff and throw it together and it will work. you need the guy who knows what fish can live together and what size filter will sustain them.
My comment is this: after hiring an architect, you should hire your own expediter directly paid by you. im writing an article on the subject and my short advice is that if you hire the expediter you dont get the excuses that 2ND CENTS got from his/her architect. you control the process you know exactly where things stand because the expediter works for you!
i can say its kinda like letting the bank hire your closing lawyer. you want to get the real story all through the process. In your case Scott is going to hire an expediter, mark up the fee, and tell him or her what to tell you! thats if you ever get to talk to the expediter at all!
also when you say 5k to file the permits it says you dont have the whole process covered. you need him to go all the way to signing the job off before he gets all the payment. i can tell you stories about the many “clean-up” jobs i am asked to do that stem from focusing on getting to the permit by any means neccessary, causing un-fixable problems at inspection and sign off time.
last tidbit, when your contractor builds something different from what is on the DOB drawings, you will have to ammend the plans filed. make sure that is encompassed in the 5k. if so 5k is not alot
Hello,
I am an Architect with much townhouse renovation experience…including construction managing (some) projects myself. That is, I oversee the construction, coordinate the trades, make decisions in the field, bid out and hire the subcontractors for select projects as required. I usually work with a handful of contractors that have given me good results on projects.
This service, construction management, is not always required. I tell you this because I not only provide clients with design and construction documents, but I also know how to build and detail and interface with contractors in the field.
I have a small practice and would love to speak with you about your project. I have my own expeditor and we have gone through the townhouse conversion/renovation process many times over…our fees are reasonable. I have a sliding scale depending on the project and client requirements.
If you wish to connect you can reach me at ra@andradearchitecture.com
I would also recommend being VERY careful about who you hire as an architect. In NYC these people are way more central (once you have one) than you may realize if you haven’t done a renovation before. Once your permits are in with their name on it the process of switching architects is cumbersome and expensive so you really have to be confident about them.
I really wish I had hired someone else — my architect is slow, sloppy, doesn’t know as much about construction, mechanics, engineering etc as he presents himself as knowing, does not have my best financial interests at heart or doesn’t really know what causes expense, and is borderline dishonest (represents papers as filed that aren’t, represents conversations as having occured that haven’t, etc).
Sadly my situation is not as unusual as one might hope. An informal survey of people I know who have done renovations indicates that as many are unhappy with their architects as with their contractors. In my opinion this is part of the reason that there is a whole industry of “project managers / designers” in NYC.
There are a LOT of architects who frequent Brownstoner and the comments above reflect that.
i am a contractor, and would recommend hiring an architect to do a detailed set of plans…you are opening your self up to being hosed by an unscrupulous contractor who will demo the job and then hold you ransom to endless change orders…”penny wise , pound foolish”
I agree with all the above, and brucef certainly makes it clear. Perhaps the comment that stands out from all the posts is “when I read posts like this I cringe”. Why is it that people are so convinced that professional work can be done by amateurs? Yes your job can be drawn up and supervised by anyone who knows how to do it, and has done it successfully – that could be your brother, your mother, a friend, anyone. Or it could be you. Perhaps you’ve done a series of smaller renovations that have given you enough background to do your own drawings. But if you haven’t, you are heading into what could be an unnecessarily unpleasant experience. You can’t build anything without real drawings. I’ve filed jobs with Scott and he redraws my drawings in order to file the job and comments that he doesn’t need all the detail. Maybe not to file, but to build it you do.
Next, the budget seems slim by about half. 300k for a gut reno of 3000 sf including hvac??? No.
And, you are planning to spend 300k and only want to spend 5k in architectural fees? When I hear that I think, I wouldn’t want to be the client, the contractor or the neighbor at that job.
Architects do many things, including solving your design problems, specifying how something should be built and in what order, making sure the scope of work is in sync with what you want, what you need, what you can pay for, what the contractor can logistically perform in a given period of time on a given budget, confirming for the client that the work is actually being done properly at each step of the project, making sure the subs get paid so you don’t get sued by people you’ve never heard of, helping the client embark on a project that they can actually afford, and so on.
If you would like to talk with some unhappy renovators in the area who thought having a architect design and/or supervise their job, it would be well worth doing. They can tell you how out of control their jobs were, and how they went way over what the contractor originally bid.
There are so many ways to do this, and all of them eventually get you to the same place, but you definitely get a better job by deciding to pay up front rather than cutting major corners and paying for it under duress at the back end.
Good luck…
To add the contractor’s perspective, I agree with all the points made here. Our construction company has done many townhouse renovations, with and without an architect’s detailed plans. We MUCH prefer working with a complete set for all the reasons articulated here–it provides a road map for the builder, owner and designer to together navigate a sometimes complex journey so that it ends happily for all.
That said, the right owner can work with a good builder to handle a renovation without an architect. But it does require a lot more of both the owner and contractor. If both parties are willing to do the extra work–and as mentioned here, the extra work is considerable–and they know what they are getting into and have a good working relationship, it certainly can be done.
One quick note: $300k sounds very low for a gut reno of a entire 3000 sq ft brownstone. But a lot will depend on what you want and the finishes chosen, etc.
ThinkC
You said, “Wouldn’t a contractor be able to tell you how to hang the doors or at least how many and what style of hinges you need?”
This is the crux of the matter. I am an owner and builder, so I already have two opinons. Your assumption regarding what a contractor can tell you is both uninformed and oblivious to human nature.
Unlike certain specific licensed trades – plumbing, electrical etc. there is no one way to hang an old door. Old doors may easily be heavier than Home Depot blanks. Contractors today do not know how to hang a door. This is because they only purchase “pre-hung” assemblies, that “float” in a rough opening – the framing. Actually hanging an old door means building a frame that is plumb, and to within an eighth inch of the right size once jambs are installed.
Your contractor du jour may or may not be able to complete this task, but he probably hasn’t done one in some time. And the laborer who will actually do the work 9 times out of 10 doesn’t know. With each wave of immigrant carpenters, there are experienced hands in the first wave, but they become pricey, and hard to find.
The proper hinges are more expensive, and why would a contractor take the time to search them out. He probably doesn’t know they exist.
A project like yours will have hundreds of situations just like this. They won’t know or care, but more importantly, you don’t know either. So butchered situations will reside behind other shoddy surfaces.
When they are gone things won’t work two months later. When I build something, I plan on it working for 40 years. But it takes me forever and costs too much.
Without someone on your side who knows the difference, (with profit motive aligned with your interests), trusting a contractor is unlikely to end happily.
Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he’s giving it an honest try. He can’t be everywhere, and redoing botched work is expensive and time consuming. Human nature sooner or later leads to one small compromise, then it’s a slippery slope from there.
Do you need an architect? What you need is someone who knows this stuff cold, and is unflinchingly thorough. That can be a father-in-law, it can be a ??? In the absence of strong construction experience, you would be foolhardy to not get a hired gun (spell architect).
I hope my example has tipped you off to the 100 ways many tasks can be done on a construction site, but you will only be happy with two or three. Those aren’t odds you should be playing with. It isn’t rocket science, but it requires knowledge and (what did my father call it…) character.
Good luck, but talk to some of the fellows who post asnwers here that you like.
Bruce
PS Hang out in Scott’s office for 5 minutes. If you thought he’s got the patience or temperament to guide you, those five minutes will be an eye opener. Getting something unusual OK’ed is his specialty. He wouldn’t know a construction detail if it bit him.
Disclosure: I am an architect as well, and I agree with all the posts above recommending you hire one. Not only will you have the benefit of someone with experience in solving the problems unique to Brownstones, especially the mechanical systems and layouts, you get the contract and a representative. I couldn’t imagine investing a sustantial sum in a project without the protections for an owner afforded by both a contract bound to construction documents – drawings & specifications, and an architect to act as owner’s representative and arbiter of any disputes that might arise. For example, even with a good contractor, a good set of drawings, and a spec., field conditions will arise requiring adjustments and trade-offs. Your architect should be able to make sure you understand the consequences and get full value. Workmen on the job without tight supervision (even with drawings) will make mistakes that, unless caught right away, are costly to redo (few small jobs will have a full-time foreman). Without the drawings, and without an architect, you might not even notice, or notice in a timely manner, let alone get the contractor to make the correction at his cost.
My recommendation would be to interview more than one architect, compare fees and check references. You may even negotiate the fees. This is not the construction economy of two years ago.
I agree with almost everyone 🙂
When I started my gut reno I thought the same thing, I would just work with a GC and we’d do it as we went along. But you DO need detailed plans to file at the DOB. Electrical, plumbings, and so on.
You didn’t say that you knew exactly what you wanted to do with the space. That to me is a problem. You need to know _exactly_ what you want to do with it. If you don’t, drawings or no, where do you tell the contractor to put the walls? And there are all kinds of code issues you would need to know. How many outlets. Where. What kind.
I think there are a couple of ways to do this. If you feel you have a really strong design sense, can lay out the basics of what you want on a sheet of paper with dimensions, are comfortable working with contractors and managing what will be a huge project, then go the minimalist route as advocated by cmu. Retain an architect only to do the drawings that are needed to file, which will include demo, electric, plumbing, lighting, and so on. Of course the architect will still need to come to the house and discuss, measure, and so on.
The other way is to pay the big bucks, have the architect not only draw everything up, but come over and supervise, pick out the tile, the lighting, and so on.
I went the first route and don’t regret it. At the same time I’m aware I made mistakes and choices that would have been better working with a person the whole time.
I also agree w BR–you pick out and supply the tile, appliances, etc., the ‘finish’. Else you’ll be battling the contractor the whole time.