do we need a building permit?
We own a 4-story/4-family brownstone in Boerum Hill and currently live in the garden level apartment, with three tenants in the three remaining units. The parlor level tenant is moving out and we plan to join the garden and parlor levels into one apartment by building a small wall to privatize the existing stairs between…
We own a 4-story/4-family brownstone in Boerum Hill and currently live in the garden level apartment, with three tenants in the three remaining units. The parlor level tenant is moving out and we plan to join the garden and parlor levels into one apartment by building a small wall to privatize the existing stairs between the two levels. We also plan to remove three interior walls on the garden level. This would involve some electrical rerouting and moving one sink about three feet. We’ve had a certified structural engineer and two architects look at exposed joists in key areas. The engineer did the calculations and it is agreed that the plan to remove the interior walls is structurally sound.
We are considering doing the work without a building permit to avoid the inevitable time, hassle and cost of getting the city involved. We are very capable and responsible DIYers, so it’s not a question of safety; we’ll do it right. The question is: what is the risk of not filing the work and getting a permit, and is it worth it to avoid it?
If the permit is the thing to do we’ll do it. But we’d love to hear honest opinions and stories from all sides
“Any mention of the proposed hindering the sale or financing of your property is ridiculous. Anyone who says otherwise has no experience with this.”
As someone who just had a bid accepted only to find out the property has an existing violation on it for an illegal roofdeck and never had the C of O amended for an addition, I can state with certainty that if you do get a violation and don’t get it resolved, it can impact the ability of a buyer to get a mortgage. One bank said they wouldn’t lend to any property with a outstanding violation, and another wants us to get an estimate and then hold that money in escrow until we, they new owners, have the violation removed by DOB.
We are on the verge of walking away from this deal over exactly the issues discussed here, so just keep in mind how it may impact your re-sale value, especially as it becomes tougher to get mortgages.
I have an 8 unit old law tenement w/o a C of O – I’d love to see how a housing court judge would speak to a tenent withholding for that stupidassed reason! That arguement makes me laugh.
Have the contractor bring in the supplies early in the morning and DO NOT get a dumpster – have the trash stored inside and get a hauler to take it away, early again, in one haul. Don’t work on weekends.
Insurance will be “concerned” say if there is a fire and you own up to the fact you wired yourself (unliscenced) or the building collaspes due to faulty work.
With these old building no one can clearly tell when the work behind the wall was done -“by the last owner” – I’d say, not me!
The Inspecter cannot open walls. he cannot force in, but he can just walk in if the door is open – following behind the workers that pay no attention to who is who. Happened to me once, eek!
8.50 PM, that is why Red Hook will always be full of interesting, creative people. Not boring, chinless yuppies. YAY!
I think all of you are blowing this out of proportion, 3:28 is right on. The original poster mentioned they are only looking to do minor plumbing, erect one wall and remove three non load bearing walls, which is by no means a big deal.
An insurance company will not deny the claim, that’s ridiculous. Take my word, I have plenty of experience with all of this…
First, the biggest risk and reason to get permits is, as an earlier poster noted, insurance. If you perform work (and yes combining 2 floors is significant) and there is a mishap (injury, flood, fire), today OR tomorrow, you will be screwed b/c the insurer will deny the claim. Read the fine print of your policy: anything done that is not pursuant to law/code will nullify coverage. Second, anyone that says tenants don’t have to pay rent b/c a Cof O is incorrect, or b/c un-permitted work is performed, they’re on drugs.
guest at May 18, 2008 3:28 PM wrote:
“From what it sounds you only have a couple days of work (if even).”
Wow! I need your contractor to paint my walls. There’s only a five minute window for him to do it though. Should be fine, right?
Another thing is, even if you are caught by some random chance of luck. The Buildings Dept. will have you do one of two things 1) Restore to prior condition OR 2) Pull permits..
The only way you will be subject to a fine is if you do not respond.
Well, you said your building is a brownstone (which clearly means in was built before 1938). Therefore, you most likely DO NOT have a Certificate of Occupancy (and it is not required). MEANING, the use is not clear and the changes you seek may have been “pre-existing.”
Any mention of the proposed hindering the sale or financing of your property is ridiculous. Anyone who says otherwise has no experience with this.
I would go ahead and do the work without a permit. Save yourself the time and possible disapproval. From what it sounds you only have a couple days of work (if even). I recommend monitoring the DOB BIS while you are doing the work to see if any complaints pop up. THEN, just keep it low key until the inspector has made two-three attempts.
Thanks everybody. This is a great eduction. Clearly a divisive issue! Anybody else want to weigh in?