do we need a building permit?
We own a 4-story/4-family brownstone in Boerum Hill and currently live in the garden level apartment, with three tenants in the three remaining units. The parlor level tenant is moving out and we plan to join the garden and parlor levels into one apartment by building a small wall to privatize the existing stairs between…
We own a 4-story/4-family brownstone in Boerum Hill and currently live in the garden level apartment, with three tenants in the three remaining units. The parlor level tenant is moving out and we plan to join the garden and parlor levels into one apartment by building a small wall to privatize the existing stairs between the two levels. We also plan to remove three interior walls on the garden level. This would involve some electrical rerouting and moving one sink about three feet. We’ve had a certified structural engineer and two architects look at exposed joists in key areas. The engineer did the calculations and it is agreed that the plan to remove the interior walls is structurally sound.
We are considering doing the work without a building permit to avoid the inevitable time, hassle and cost of getting the city involved. We are very capable and responsible DIYers, so it’s not a question of safety; we’ll do it right. The question is: what is the risk of not filing the work and getting a permit, and is it worth it to avoid it?
If the permit is the thing to do we’ll do it. But we’d love to hear honest opinions and stories from all sides
So are you stating that you have never broken the law? We all do at some time or another, it simply is a question of our own personal beliefs as to what laws we break and which we don’t.
For the record, I would have no problem with a developer doing a minor renovation without a permit if it were safe, didn’t inconvenience the neighbors and did not negatively impact the neighborhood. I don’t see where the original posters job violates any of my own personal criteria. Your criteria is different. That’s why they make M&M’s in plain and peanut.
i am really shocked at the double standard going on in this thread.
would ANYONE on this blog consider for even a moment that a developer should do even a minor renovation without proper DOB permits? Why should a developer be held to a higher standard than a home owner? because there might be a profit involved?
sure, the DOB is an expensive hassle. i am an architect, i know of what i speak. but guess what. it is the LAW. is the criteria for obeying the law or doing the right thing the level of convenience? or the probability of getting caught?
as for insisting that the architect self certifies (technically it is professional certification), consider that you are asking the professional to certify that EVERYTHING with the project and the application is 100% correct. Can any of you certify that your work is perfect? it creates a level of liability that i am not willing to take on. if my client insisted, my fee would go UP.
I’ve been on both sides of the fence, permits and no permits. For something like this, in my opinion you’re better off not pulling permits. Yes you are subject to civil penalties if caught, but that does not make you a criminal. They are civil penalties.
The real issue and purpose of building codes are safety and infringing upon your neighbors. This sounds like neither is a problem, and it’s the yardstick I use when pulling a permit. I think that the vast majority of posters agree. If it doesn’t negatively impact me, and doesn’t create a hazard, I don’t really care what you do inside your own home.
I can’t think of the last time I pulled a permit to park a dumpster, or the last time anyone gave me a hard time about it. If memory serves me correctly, the difference between the cost of the permit and a summons is less than twenty dollars, so the vast majority of people would rather pay the ticket (IF they are bagged) rather than spending the time and effort to get the permit. You can also go with one of the services that send a compactor to site and it is loaded and removed the same day.
The majority of problems arise when people don’t use common sense or courtesy. Make sure you clean the street everyday, if you are getting a dumpster, make sure you put it in front of your own house, not the neighbors. Stand outside when it is being delivered, make sure that they don’t drop it on the neighbors sidewalk, let the neighbors know approximately how long it’s going to be there. Things like that always make things go a lot smoother. Same thing with the construction. When you get home at two in the morning after a particularily rancorous meeting, don’t take out your frustrations by demo-ing a wall. If you are wondering if it’s too early to start work, it probably is.
If an inspector shows up, be nice to him! You don’t have to let him in, but tell him (I’m not being sexist, I don’t think that DOB has a single female inspector, and if they do, I’ve never met her) in a way that’s not going to be offensive. They’re human too and if you make it personal, you will lose.
Good luck either way.
I think people here are making up the law as they go along.
1:36
This why Red Hook will remain a backwater,industrial wasteland. Homeowners that think they’re above the law = marginal social and civic involvement and zero political clout.
So they can legally withhold rent but live in the apt? Hmmm…is that likely? Why couldn’t the landlord just evict them?
What a thread.
1. There are jobs I would do without a permit, but certainly not combining two floors, which involves a change of use and occupancy. The various risks involved don’t go away with time – in the future the dob can make you put the whole thing back the way it was if they don’t approve it after the fact; a future buyer may or may not want to see evidence that the work was done properly and inspected.
2. You do not have to change your c of o if you use a 4 fam as a 3. You can, but you don’t have to. And changing it isn’t going to lower your taxes, as you’ll get reassessed.
3. If you think the ‘cost’ and hassle of getting the city involved is too much, you can’t afford the job at this time.
4. If your insurer finds out that you did this kind of work without proper permits, and without telling them in advance that you are doing the work, they could drop you. No I’m not kidding. And if there is a claim against you of any kind resulting from the work, whether it is justified or not, you will be on your own.
The same debate is repeated. You don’t normally need a c of o for an old building. However, once you change it from a 4 to a 3 for example, and file permits with dob, you will need to get a c of o.
I would suggest doing the work without one. I recently converted my 3 family to a 2. I used an architect and got the proper permits. 600k later, the dob inspector came and checked everything off in the house but then had many objections for the exterior. Things like a cracked step on my stoop. Now I’m spending 30k more. Once the permits are there, I have to follow thru until the C of O or I cannot refi. There is no guarantee that when the DOB comes back they will not have another list of objections.
If you get a permit to put up a few walls and the dob comes in, they will find things like not enough outlets on each wall.
As for tenants not paying rent if you don’t have a c of o, people are confused. If you have a 4 family and you illegally add a 5th, then the tenant can withold rent. Very few brownstones have a c of o.
I did the same thing you are thinking of a couple years ago. No permits.
And my life is just fine.
And it is b.s. about tenants not paying rent.
You can use a 4 family as 3…just not a 3 as a 4 family.
The rental apts have their cOFo.
If you look at houses for sale – you will find plenty of examples of 4 families used as 3.
As far as going thru the process of new CofO for 3 family —- you would end up with high taxes because assessed at new full value with new CofO.