The War For Brooklyn
While new towers are regularly raised across Manhattan with little comment, changes afoot in Brooklyn have sparked fighting of an intensity rarely seen since the Battle of Long Island was waged on this turf in 1776. The Atlantic Yards complex, designed by Frank Gehry for builder Bruce Ratner, is simply the most conspicuous front in…
While new towers are regularly raised across Manhattan with little comment, changes afoot in Brooklyn have sparked fighting of an intensity rarely seen since the Battle of Long Island was waged on this turf in 1776. The Atlantic Yards complex, designed by Frank Gehry for builder Bruce Ratner, is simply the most conspicuous front in what some see as an all-out war for the soul of the borough. Gentrification per se isn’t always the issue; the argument centers often on the appropriate scale for Brooklyn. Is it big-box discounters and midtown-sized skyscrapers, or mom-and-pop stores and low-rises yielding unimpeded views?
So begins Time Out NY’s latest cover story on the battle for the soul of Brooklyn. Regular readers of this blog and others won’t find too many surprises in the seven neighborhood discussions, but the issue does provide a decent overview of the most significant points of contention in the borough’s growth spurt. Unfortunately, you’ll need a subscription and log-in to follow any of the links below.
Battleground: Atlantic Yards [Time Out NY]
Battleground: Gowanus [Time Out NY]
Battleground: Brooklyn Bridge Park [Time Out NY]
Battleground: Downtown [Time Out NY]
Battleground: Bed Stuy [Time Out NY]
Battleground: Williamsburg/Greenpoint [Time Out NY]
Battleground: Red Hook [Time Out NY]
Wow- is this pick on Dreadnaught day? Brownbomber- you know I have lots of respect for you but isn’t it unfair to accuse Dreadnaught of hijacking a thread? Most of us thought it was a pretty good discussion for all that it got heated a bit.It even extended to the WTC- and it obviously interested people because they kept posting. What would there have been to say about the Civil War House other than it’s a damn shame what’s happening? Are we just supposed to stick totally and narrowly to the topic to the exclusion of anything else? I wouldn’t think so- it’s fascinating to see how threads develop- sometimes good, sometimes not, but always interesting. Dreadnaught hasn’t said anything to warrant the reactions he’s getting here so how about we all keep it civil?
Marcy- why is he a fascist? He’s presenting his opinion like all of us have. But to accuse him of fascism seems a little over the top. Unless I’m mistaken all of us pretty much want the same thing for Brooklyn- we just want it in different ways.
I’ve always associated Manhattan with skyscrapers (which I happen to love), crowds, lack of sunlight, etc. People love Brooklyn for not being Manhattan. I guess the current urban philisophy is build big and dense, make a more economic use of resources and the environment. I’m not so sure that’s the answer. Densely populated areas actually form their own sub set ecosystem within the city ecosystem. Some of those will put demands on the city at the cost of other neighborhoods. As we pack people in more and more closely, and build higher and higher, the cost inevitably goes up to maintain them. And there is a psychological price to pay as well. We definitely need a new way of urban thinking-piling people up on top of each other is not the way. I wish I could say I know what is, but the truth is I don’t. Nor, at the moment, do I think anyone else does either.
Not to worry CrownHeightsProud- we can always tell the real thing from a cheap imitation. 🙂
Not liking this CrownHeightsPROWD thing, but then, that’s probably his/her point.
Going to pick up Time Out before I speak out.
Original CHP
“Dreadnaught, your posts are damn near fascist. I don’t really care one way or the other about AY, but its hearing people like you, who are so fanatically opposed to the project and want to control every aspect of a neighborhood, that makes me hope the project succeeds. What will you put all of your time and effort into opposing (in vain) next?”
Marcy, you have repeatedly name called and made straw man arguments that i want to control every aspect of a neighborhood – when in fact that is EXACTLY what Ratner’s project does.
Please explain how my posts are “fascist” I have very simply laid out how and what Ratner’s project is doing and that it overrides the democratic and community input process.
Opposing eminent domain is ‘fascist’?
Again you’ve repeatedly called me names, you have responded to one fact I have posted and then you make up what you *think* I am saying and respond to that.
Well gee marcy you just want to destroy every brownstone in Brooklyn! …sounds pretty silly doesn’t it?
Dreadnaught, your posts are damn near fascist. I don’t really care one way or the other about AY, but its hearing people like you, who are so fanatically opposed to the project and want to control every aspect of a neighborhood, that makes me hope the project succeeds. What will you put all of your time and effort into opposing (in vain) next?
Someone has found a way to gangsta CrownHeightsProud with the new logins.
Prowd indeed.
“The problem with alot of the other debates is that they center around much squishier ideas about ambience and aesthetics. Dreadnaught just used the word “scale” 4-times in his last post, without ever defining it. The notion that any two people could agree to the appropriate scale of any development is absurd.”
mrLomez – we specifically have zoning laws that do define what appropriate scale is, in the case of AY and Downtown, they are doing an end run around those laws -and environmental review – by using Empire State Development – which essentially overrides zoning, community input and environmental review. It’s the worst sort of central urban planning as those that devastated New York in the 50s and 60s…Think about…what are the neighborhoods that bounced back? the centrally planned public housing or the brownstone neighborhoods?
I think some of the wars for Brooklyn’s soul are very well defined. Red Hook, Greenpoint, Gowanus changing from industrial areas to residential areas have very understandable outcomes. Businesses will necessarily close, while people will move in. These people will need schools and subway cars and garbage collection, etc.
The problem with alot of the other debates is that they center around much squishier ideas about ambience and aesthetics. Dreadnaught just used the word “scale” 4-times in his last post, without ever defining it. The notion that any two people could agree to the appropriate scale of any development is absurd.
We need to stop talkng about “scale,” “context” and “historic character” because they really don’t resonate enough to matter.
One asepct of AY opponents that I find amusing is their silly belief that this war will be won with facts
Yes, silly us to think the truth has any relevance. If you (and me) are complacent about this sort of corruption – and that’s what it is – then we get what we deserve.
and overblown language. Folks, this is entirely about power and we all know which side has more of that.
So are you agreeing it’s not about what’s right?
“You know you’ve gotten the better of an AT opponent when they pull out the old “you must work for Ratner” card.”
how precisely, have you ‘got the better of me’ i know they aren’t relevant but can refute any of the facts I posted concerning this tax payer subsidized project?
“Your exact words were “MOST BROOKLYNITES don’t want this…” Funny, when you’re called upon to provide evidence, you can’t do so (because you don’t have any) and you then proceed to reword your original statment to better suit your needs.”
To better clarify what I meant to say. You might say its something like electrical power plants -no one wants them in their neighborhoods but someone in another neighborhood might want it built so they get electricity.
on the eminent domain issue, if you don’t want it done to you, in my opinion you have no right to advocate that it be done to someone else.
Oh, and another thing I forgot…
You know you’ve gotten the better of an AT opponent when they pull out the old “you must work for Ratner” card.
heh.