Is Your Stoop Private Property?
Maybe not, based on this tale of post-DNC speech imbibing on a Park Slope stoop that resulted in a $25 ticket. Here’s the tale from Park Slope Parents: My husband was IMing and having a beer last night on our stoop after Biden’s speech…NYPD roll up in a patrol car and busted him for an…
Maybe not, based on this tale of post-DNC speech imbibing on a Park Slope stoop that resulted in a $25 ticket. Here’s the tale from Park Slope Parents:
My husband was IMing and having a beer last night on our stoop after Biden’s speech…NYPD roll up in a patrol car and busted him for an open container violation for 25 bucks…he was very polite and told the NYPD he was appreciative of their presence, but asked asked about the public/private space concept, and he explained that if I was behind a fence or gate I would be ok. Since we don’t have a gate, the set-back from the sidewalk didn’t matter.
I was reading a bit about this online today…there is some opinion that the officer needs to report the actual brand of the alcohol being consumed or it won’t hold up in court. The cop actually asked him “What kind of beer are you drinking?” which I thought was odd at the time, but he didn’t write the brand on the ticket. Anyhow, the cops were polite and my husband was polite and overall just a goofy story…we’ll probably just write the check for $25 and mail it in rather than burning up a bunch of time contesting the thing.
Has this happened to anyone else?
Park Slope Row. Photo by senatorpeter6.
Thanks AdrianLesher. That’s interesting. I didn’t realize a public place includes the interior of any stationary motor vehicle on the street. So if I see a hot blond in a convertible at a red light, am I allowed to jump in and open a set? I guess once the light turns, she has the right to throw me out.
As to trespass: If the area is not fenced or otherwise designed to exclude intruders, you probably need a no trespass sign to put people on notice to stay off your property. That doesn’t mean it’s public property, but absent the no trespassing notice you’ll have a hard time prosecuting.
As to the open container law, the statute defines public places as:
A place to which the public or a substantial group of persons has access including, but not limited to, any highway, street, road, sidewalk, parking area, shopping area, place of amusement, playground, park or beach located within the city except that the definition of a public place shall not include those premises duly licensed for the sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages on the premises or within their own private property. Such public place shall also include the interior of any stationary motor vehicle which is on any highway, street, road, parking area, shopping area, playground, park or beach located within the city.
Although pro-prosectuion judges might strain to find a person’s own stoop to be a “public place,” the fact that the stoop is private property (assuming it isn’t a stoop shared by tenants, apartment dwellers etc., which might make it a “public place) should insulate the drinker from prosecution.
Incidentally, some judges will dismiss open containeer charges when there are not sufficient allegations to establish that the beverage in question was alcoholic (e.g. allegations about a beer label, or allegations that the officer smelled alcohol in the container).
In the same way that the city can give you a ticket for having rubbish in your front area, it is considered public space (gate or no gate.) Your ownership starts at the building line.
I’m wondering what constitutes a fence. If I string a chain across the stoop, does that count?
I don’t really have a beef with someone sitting down on my stoop, though the crew that is happily erecting a 15 story monolith that has already obliterated my tiny view of sky … it doesn’t thrill me that they sit on our stoop to watch their work.
This happened to me in Sunset Park about 2 or 3 years ago. I own a house on th block but was having a beer with a friend on his stoop down the street (he owns on the block too). The cops were very aggressive and were ready to bust for smoking weed to (even though we weren’t). We were just “having a beer” and were not “partying at all”. We got tickets and I actually went to the 72nd precinct the next day to compalin. I honestly think there are more significant issues to address in the neighborghood than us having a beer.
I had to go to court, but they give you an option to take a quick “quality of life” course. It lasts about an hour and the fine is waved. The whole thing was totally ridiculous. The logic is that your stoop is a public place because it is in public view – regardless of wheter or not you own it. And for the record we were behind a gate, so that’s not an issue.
From talking to the cops I learned that the best thing to do is to have that drink on your stoop. Just pour your beer in a cup or glass.
My neighbor was given a ticket recently. Even though our stoops are private property, it is still considered public space, as an open container is an open container.
I suggest using a plastic tumbler, which is what I always do when I want to enjoy some wine/beer on my stoop and watch the world walk by down DeKalb.
I think the open container and trespassing issues are separate. As Z and others point out, the open container law is governed by the definition of “public place.” As SMeyer says, trespass depends on whether it’s open or closed property. So, as is often the case, you could have a fenced stoop that sits on the public sidewalk. You own the stoop and it’s fenced, so someone sitting on the stoop without permission would be trespassing. But because it sits on the public sidewalk, it would also be considered public space and drinking on it would be a violation of the open container law.
(the answer to the general question, that is — i don’t know the answer to tybur6’s question!)
i think the answer is, ‘it depends.’
nyc admin code section 10-125 is the city’s ‘open container’ law. it prohibits drinking alcohol in a ‘public place.’ a ‘public place’ is defined as ‘a place to which the public or a substantial group of persons has access.’ the definition gives several examples, including roads, parks, playgrounds, and shopping areas.
so the issue is whether a stoop is a ‘public place’ within the meaning of this law.
looking at the examples, the answer would seem to be ‘no,’ since they are all locations that are regularly used by a wide range of members of the public — i.e. property owned by the government, shopping malls, etc. on the other hand, there’s a ny court decision holding that ‘public space’ should be interpreted broadly and that the common area of an apartment building is a public space, even though it’s private property.
i would say that if a stoop is within the bounds of the property lines, and if the building is a single-family home, then it would be hard to argue that it’s a public place. if, however, the stoop extends onto the sidewalk, or the property is a multi-family (thus resembling the common area of an apartment building held to be a public space by at least one court), then the city probably has the better argument.