Carroll Gardens Historic District May Grow
The Landmarks Preservation Commission released the boundaries of the expanded Historic District it is pushing for in Carroll Gardens and, not surprisingly, not everyone was pleased. The city would like to expand the pitifully small area that was protected back in 1973 (shown above) to include all the blocks bounded by Court Street, Henry Street,…
The Landmarks Preservation Commission released the boundaries of the expanded Historic District it is pushing for in Carroll Gardens and, not surprisingly, not everyone was pleased. The city would like to expand the pitifully small area that was protected back in 1973 (shown above) to include all the blocks bounded by Court Street, Henry Street, Huntington Street and First Place. Sounds like a nice idea to us but there are bound to be some whiners, right? Right. “Landmarking will force the old-timers out,” said John Esposito, co-founder of Citizens Against Landmarks. “All the new people who have $100,000 income a year think this is a great idea.” (This choice of this number seems reminiscent of Dr. Evil’s famous “one million dollars” line in Austin Powers; after all, it’s not like $100,000 a year goes too far in the Carroll Gardens housing market these days!) The plan for expanding the historic district is supported by the Carroll Gardens Neighborhood Association and the Brooklyn Preservation Council, and seems to be in keeping with the spirit of last year’s rezoning which made it harder to put up new out-of-context buildings in the low-rise community. No-brainer!
City Wants Second Carroll Gardens Historic District [NY Post]
And this all got started because I took exception to benson’s stating that the demographics of CG and CH were the same 20 years ago. And all I’m saying is they weren’t – maybe 30 or 40 years ago they were, but not 20. Unfortunately, hatred and ignorance know no color boundaries – bigots come in all flavors.
And I do sympathize with people who owned their homes before they were landmarked, but that’s life, just like all the other laws that exist in our society. I got into mine with my eyes open (and have lived only briefly in non-landmarked areas) specifically because I didn’t want to live with the threat of the building next to me or across the street being demolished or defaced because someone wanted to do something else with it.
“You see, unlike you, who has still yet to cite an incident or fact”,
So me being called a jew boy having pennies thrown at my feet multiple times when I was an adolescent doesn’t count as an incident or fact?
Once again, I have many many facts and incidents all through my childhood up throughout my life here, but when you don’t believe it and consider me a liar, why bother?
The difference between you and me Benson, is that i’ll buy Moynihan’s book because it sounds interesting, I was there and will be able to relate, and I don’t completely discount your position at all. I bet there’s even excerpts of his book that support my life’s experiences.
You on the other hand, are set in your ways like so many other people, unwilling to be changed, and that likely affects your opinions on things that span far beyond Italians and landmarking.
I personally would welome Landmarks Preservation in CG. I’ve had neighboring owners usually not fix thier houses at all, but when they do it’s bizarre, stuff you couldn’t make up.
The thread regarding Italian Americans is more complex than typical bigotry.
Back in the bad 60’s and 70’s, when street drug addicts would walk up the street looking into the cars to figure which ones to break into. One would never know how different it was back then. Cops didn’t get out of their cars.
We were desparate for some “law and order”, and if goonbas were the only ones willing to protect us, we more than willingly supported them.
Sure we would hear the gunshots on Columbia St sometimes, but it was better than the alternatives.
I would apologize for the unfortunate actions aginst people of color, because our protectors weren’t very “couth”.
And this nonsense that “liberals” need Italian Americans as scapegoats for their denial of other racism is so absurd as to be laugh out loud funny. YOU are the one who started the whole thing in the first place. Then you deny people their own life experiences and practically call them “exaggerators” or worse, liars. Who do you think you are? You started the fire, threw gas on it, and now want to blame “liberals” for the whole thing. Nobody buys it.
And regarding landmarking – I don’t know where the notion that the LPC makes you employ “LPC approved contractors” comes from. They don’t care who you use, nor do they recommend anyone if you ask. It’s not their job, or their place to do so as a city agency. So saying that your job is going to cost twice what it should because of the people the LPC “makes” you hire is just out and out wrong. The only occasions where licensed or approved contractors are necessary is if you are using loan money from HPD or Landmarks Conservancy, and that is because those organizations want to make sure their money is used by people who know what they are doing. Even then they don’t tell you who to use. If your brother-in-law is licensed, he is just as eligible as the next guy. If you are using your own money, they have nothing to say.
“I am not making Italians bogeymen. I have had many Italian friends in this neighborhood growing up that I am still friends with that my parents were best friends with, who I grew up with, whom I raise my family with to this day, but to say that we are lying about our experiences is not right.”
And that goes for me, too, benson. I’m exasperated. Of course it has to be “black and white” with you, never a shade of grey in your world! Never the possibility that there was a bad moment in the picture perfect sepia-toned world of your South Brooklyn. Never the glimmer of recognition from your youth, that not everyone was living in Mayberry, 11231!
It’s outrageous that you deny us our experiences. (I think I know who lifer is, and if I am correct, we had/may have quite a few overlapping friends/acquaintances.)
Of course, we made good friends here over time. And surely the plumber down the block helped me out of more than one jam as a kid. As surely the store owner sent a bottle of wine to my parents table at the restaurant when we ran into him there. And the pharmacist gave me best advice. Don’t make us bigots or assume these are exaggerations because are speaking up about some less than pleasant realities of the past.
Quoting sociological opinion/commentary doesn’t change reality.
“I don’t think the Italians in Bensonhurst refer to the Chinese who have moved in there as “Liberal””
That’s for damn sure!!!!
While I don’t deny some historical racism in CG, a big part of it was the suspicion of anyone who didn’t belong in the neighborhood. When I (Italian American) bought here in the early 80s it became clear to me pretty quickly that I could grow old and die here and still be considered “one of the new people”. Several of my (white) friends complained bitterly when they came to visit, “I was watched all the way down the block”. My answer: “That’s right. You don’t belong here. And they’re going to keep on watching you until they recognize you and then they’ll say hello.” Black kids (from the school, projects?) used to linger on the block and be watched too. Just like my white friends, they didn’t live here.
Lifer:
Actually, I didn’t synthesize the thoughts above about NYC liberals making working-class Italians their bogeymen. Two prominent sociolgists wrote extensively about this phenomenon. One was the late Sen Daniel Patrick Moynihan, in his classic book that goes something like: “The Jews, Irish, Italians, Blacks and Puerto Ricans of New York City.” Moynihan was Irish and a Democrat. The other person who wrote on this topic was Jim Sleepr, a liberal Jew, in his book “Liberal Racialism”.
You see, unlike you, who has still yet to cite an incident or fact, I base my thoughts on facts and stuff I have read. as well as my own experience.
Finally, with regards to your ridiculous last paragraph: I don’t think the Italians in Bensonhurst refer to the Chinese who have moved in there as “Liberal”.
Keep trying. I know eveyone needs a bogeyman in their life.
I can site many instances that I was witness to and victim of. I don’t feel the need to list that stuff here. I can tell you that if you were white and not Italian when I was growing up your name automatically became “Jew boy” which was my name for alot of my adolescence (coupled with the throwing of pennies at my feet).
I am not making Italians “bogeymen”. I have had many Italian friends in this neighborhood growing up that I am still friends with that my parents were best friends with, who I grew up with, whom I raise my family with to this day, but to say that we are lying about our experiences is not right.
I didn’t grow up in a Black neighborhood so I can’t speak of that. I can speak of where I am from and I have no reason to exaggerate.
I am not stereotyping all Italians, unfortunately stereotypes exist for a reason, there are good people and mean people in every race and creed.
The fact of the matter is when the new people of all backgrounds other than Italians started moving in to these neighborhoods, the “Bogeymen” put these people all into one big generalzed stereotyped label, they started calling them “Liberals”.