Need to replace 1938 coop lobby/hallway windows

Hi, Brownstoners,

We’re a six-story coop built in 1938 looking to replace our fireproof lobby and hallway windows, which are about 5′ x 6′ and comprised of two french-door style windows surrounded by square panes, with a working transom on top. They are steel framed with the original wired, frosted glass. As you can see, the sloppy paint jobs over the years have really taken their toll and the frames have been repainted so many times that the transoms no longer shut. We figure it’s probably easier to just get whole new, powder coated frames and panes. However, we’d really like to keep the original style. Does anyone know anyone who does this type of work? One post I read suggests that we would need to get one fabricator to design the frames and another to fill them with glass. Is this the case? Thanks! [IMG_1971](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:ACcc:img_1971.jpg.jpg) [IMG_1972](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:yrAq:img_1972.jpg.jpg)

douglasmix

in Doors & Windows 8 years and 7 months ago

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douglasmix | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Loads of thanks to everyone! You guys are a font of info! #Bond’s tale is cautionary and will definitely check out the gov site. We’re having the building’s architect come over next week to give us his assessment. I guess the basic issue is going to come down to new (in either new style or as close to original style as we can get) or restored, allowing for increases in efficiency, fire safety, etc. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say.

zlapqtorekgljwxy | 8 years and 7 months ago

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If you’re looking for someone to talk to about replacement, check out these folks http://www.aswindowassociates.com/. I never got a chance to work with them but I did get some good pricing on some unique 1949 casement windows in my previous job. They’re local, and might even know folks who do steel window restoration as well. This guy’s in Peekskill, does great work, probably expensive though http://www.seekirchersteelwindow.com/our-services/

louis.finabit | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Your best place to start to get educated on your steel windows is the National Park Service’s Technical Preservation Services website (https://www.nps.gov/tps/). Click on the “How to Preserve” tab, than on “Preservation Briefs”. Preservation Brief 13 is on the repair and thermal upgrade of steel windows. The brief itself is from 1984, but the information is still relevant.

Bond | 8 years and 7 months ago

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All the replacement parts you need are still available including casement cranks, safety glass, pebbled and clear, etc. The problem that you are going to run into is that these windows are single panes of glass, so very energy inefficient. The muntins (the grid part) is usually only about 1/2″ thick. This is enough to glaze a single pane, but the thinnest double paned window you’re going to be able to get will be 1/2″ thick. I’ve dealt with this in the past by siliconing the windows flush with the muntins. The look was acceptable, but I had a large failure rate in the glass seals and had to replace about ten percent of the panes the first year. You get a much smaller failure rate with traditional glazing as the putty acts as an additional seal. The other down side is that the seal itself is visible. It looks like a design element and I was fine with it, but some people may not like it.
Either way, you will not be able to use safety glass and double panes, it’s an either/or option.
I replaced the panes that had weak seals (you’ll know because you’ll end up w ith moisture between the panes), the rest have been fine with no additional replacements four or five years later, but it was still a pain.

cate | 8 years and 7 months ago

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There’s also a windows company upstate that specializes in rolled metal. But probably your best bet is just to refurbish what you have.

cate | 8 years and 7 months ago

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As far as lead paint is concerned, it’s easier to strip doors off site. But if you want to do it on site it’s not that big a deal. Hire people who’ve been certified in lead abatement (all painters, strippers, and contractors, typically). They should use a chemical stripper to encapsulate the paint and throw it away. No sanding and no sand blasting.

santos | 8 years and 7 months ago

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[20121018_161111](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:XXAf:20121018_161111.jpg.jpg)

santos | 8 years and 7 months ago

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[20130824_155817](//muut.com/u/brownstoner/s3/:brownstoner:VCoh:20130824_155817.jpg.jpg)

santos | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Hi my name is santos, I’m  carpenter  work in wood, install stair, railings, pocket door and
Repair of interior stairs, floor repair ,
Install crown molding, base, door trim and door replacement.
New window and new entry door installation
Siding installation
My number is (347) 701 0635 …pliniosanto25@gmail.com

resident2 | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I would look into finding someone to properly restore the existing windows.
Strip off/sandblast all the old paint etc, and then refinish with a good rust inhibiting or similar paint. Weather strip and weld if needed. But the old original windows will probably be much better for the long run than any budget minded replacement.
Of course if money is no object then there are many custom order companies and contractors that can create a similar quality style and quality window.
If you are restoring rather than replacing you will not have to worry about the conflicting information that you will get about the current code. And it will be conflicting!

douglasmix | 8 years and 7 months ago

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@EJR: Thanks for all this info! I didn’t know that today’s fireproof windows did not require chicken wire anymore (we had been casually led to believe otherwise and being complete newbies, didn’t know otherwise.) Apologies to daveinbedsty! It’s good to know that the wire may not be required. I actually like the vintage look of chicken wire, but if there are other fireproof alternatives out there, we’d definitely like to look at them. As to the glass, I think our main concern, although the charm of old glass is considerable, is just replacing the frosted glass with clear glass, to let in more light, and if they can be more energy efficient=bonus!

re: stripping the frames. Having them removed and stripped offsite is a brilliant idea! One that hadn’t occurred to us. Since we’re not going to be doing this until the spring, when it’s warmer, we could just cover the open window holes with plastic or something (and child guards) and avoid the whole lead paint abatement issue. You’re right in that it might end up being as if not more expensive than completely new windows, but the issue of having a historically correct result (not that we’re landmark or anything—far from it!) might indeed be worth it.

Thanks!

EJR | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I am no expert on fire codes or window glass, but I am not sure whether today’s fire-rated glass is as attractive as the vintage panes. I don’t think they make chicken wire glass anymore except for certain decorative applications. There is also something to be said for the natural imperfections of older glass.

With respect to restoration, there are two options, I suppose. You could have it done on-site by a contractor licensed to work with and abate lead paint, but what I was really thinking of was having the entire windows removed, brought to a workshop, stripped and rebuilt. This is probably just as, if not more, expensive than replacing the windows, but the finished product may be more aesthetically pleasing than replacements. They may not be as energy efficient, however.

That said, I don’t particularly have an recommendations for this work, unfortunately.

douglasmix | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Thanks for the ideas!

@arkady: Will definitely check that out.

@daveinbedstuy: I should have mentioned that we want to replace the frosted glass with clear glass, to let in more light, but we’d like to keep the overall 1938 feel of the design. I believe we do have to stick with wired glass for the fire code. It makes the glass less likely to shatter in event of fire.

@EJR: We’ve definitely haven’t ruled out restoration. We’ve only just begun this process but I think perhaps we’re afraid of having the frames completely stripped of decades of paint because of the lead paint issues. We have several little kids in the building and the lead paint would, we presume, lead to all kinds of abatement issues. But at this stage we don’t know. It would be lovely to be able to keep the frames and the historical hardware and just put in new glass. Do you know of any restoration companies you could recommend?

Again, thanks all!

EJR | 8 years and 7 months ago

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Have you considered exploring restoration/refurubish options in addition to completely windows? If you like the look of this glass, it may be hard to replace and a full restoration may be an interesting option.

daveinbedstuy | 8 years and 7 months ago

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You should be able to find a large number of modern alternatives to this style fabrication. Why does it have to be frosted wire-impregnated glass anyway?

Arkady | 8 years and 7 months ago

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I’d look at companies that do the ‘chicken coop’-style skylights. They could fabricate the frames & do the glass work & installation.