baseboard heating installation vs current steam heating/radiator system
Hi Brownstoners, We’re about to start a near-gut job on a 2-family, 3 story wood frame house. Needing a lot of advice here…This is just one of what I anticipate will be many questions about this project. The house currently has steam heating/radiators. Our architect is recommending ditching those for baseboard closed loop hot water heat. I’ve been doing a lot of reading on different heating systems, and it’s making me more confused. Maybe it’s bc it’s all I’ve ever known, but I love steam heating. I like that my apt is super warm in the winters. But ultimately, we want a system that requires less maintenance, is less expensive to operate and maintain, and keeps the house warm. We do have to consider upfront costs though, as we’re on a tight budget. If baseboard heating is recommended, can you give specifics on the exact parts I should make sure are used, e.g. the baseboard units? I want to make sure the contractor doesn’t use the one that’s most likely to cause problems down the road. Architect also mentioned using pex to install…do you recommend this? Probably worth mentioning that this is an attached house and we’ll be replacing all the windows (with what is another question for another day). The gas boiler is around 40 years old and we’ll have to remove the chimney off the back of the house since it’s pulling away and held in place with braces. We could replace with a stainless steel chimney (no masonry) but architect also mentioned we could choose to NOT replace chimney if we get a new boiler that doesn’t need to be vented via chimney. Thanks in advance for your input!
ps158
in Plumbers and Plumbing 10 years and 11 months ago
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7 replies
cate | 10 years and 10 months ago
I like this answer, Master Plumber, because it supports my anti baseboard heating prejudice with lots of juicy facts and science. Also FWIW our last rental apartment had baseboard heating and the monthly bills were outrageous.
ps158 | 10 years and 10 months ago
(Aaaaand, I think I just figured out how to get emails…I “subscribed” to the thread. I’m a newbie, still learning!)
ps158 | 10 years and 10 months ago
Sorry for responding so late to say THANK YOU for your input! (I thought I would get an email when someone responds, but having logged back in, I see that is not the case…I thought my question wasn’t compelling enough for someone to write in ha!) Anyhow, I do appreciate all your insight. I’m still pretty torn about what to do. But, we can’t afford $45K on a hydronic system, and if we’re going to do it, I’d want to do it right. We’ll likely stick with the steam system.
ventilated | 10 years and 10 months ago
Can’t add anything on the technical end, but if you’re concerned about radiators affecting your furniture placement, just wait until baseboard heating prevents you from putting a single bookshelf, cupboard or other piece of furniture flat against a wall. Gives new meaning to cooking the books.
Master Plvmber | 10 years and 11 months ago
**Here’s the deal:** The house currently has steam heating/radiators. Our architect is recommending ditching those for baseboard closed loop hot water heat. I’ve been doing a lot of reading on different heating systems, and it’s making me more confused. **Typical baseboard heaters, what heating techs call fin-tube radiators, are crappy emitters of heat. Radiators make us warm in three naturally occurring ways: 1\. Convection – cool air from the floor is drawn up into their heated sections and warm air is released out the top. This process carries BTUs out of the radiator and results in cooler water being returned to the boiler where it must be reheated. 2\. Radiation – having the same effect as the sun, or a camp fire, or a radiant floor heating system, our bodies lose less heat when in the presence of warmth or of something warm. When we stop losing heat, we feel warm. This process does not raise the air temperature significantly but affords us comfort none the less. 3\. Conduction – radiators warm the objects in the immediate area.** Fin-tube heaters warm practically (in the true sense of the word) by convection alone. They do not offer radiant or conductive heat. This means they stop heating entirely when the boiler and pump turn off and start heating again when it all starts up for a new cycle. This gives us pulses of heat and not the steadier gain and gentle fall of heating that high-mass cast-iron or steel radiators give us. One of the beautiful things about hydronic heating is the elimination of wide temperature swings in the home. The point is, that while I agree that circulating hot water heating (called hydronic heating) is a superior system, your heat emitters should be selected with greater care if that’s the route you go. Maybe it’s bc it’s all I’ve ever known, but I love steam heating. I like that my apt is super warm in the winters. But ultimately, we want a system that requires less maintenance, is less expensive to operate and maintain, and keeps the house warm. We do have to consider upfront costs though, as we’re on a tight budget. **If you’re truly on a “tight budget” then forget about doing this. A good hydronic system costs real money. You’ve got 3 stories to heat, plus buy a boiler and provide for code-compliant venting. Start thinking $45K and up. If someone’s telling you less than that it’s because they’re giving you garbage and installing it on the cheap.** If baseboard heating is recommended, can you give specifics on the exact parts I should make sure are used, e.g. the baseboard units? I want to make sure the contractor doesn’t use the one that’s most likely to cause problems down the road. Architect also mentioned using pex to install…do you recommend this? **There’s nothing wrong with using PEX to deliver heat from the source to the radiators, but there is a tendency to think that the most common size tubing, ½”, is the right size for every application, so watch that. I often get called to diagnose problem heating jobs in renovations that used to have 5 different sizes of pipe that are now repiped in one size of PEX. That’s a problem, and it’s usually buried behind the walls. PEX also requires a little more consideration for freeze protection and noise. PEX can be very creaky when it passes through holes drilled in wood beams and wall joists.** Probably worth mentioning that this is an attached house and we’ll be replacing all the windows (with what is another question for another day). The gas boiler is around 40 years old and we’ll have to remove the chimney off the back of the house since it’s pulling away and held in place with braces. We could replace with a stainless steel chimney (no masonry) but architect also mentioned we could choose to NOT replace chimney if we get a new boiler that doesn’t need to be vented via chimney. **Venting boilers through side walls is a very tricky thing to do in a code-compliant way. Minimum distances from building openings such as windows, doors, exhaust penetrations, etc, and also lot lines, have to be observed or you can get yourself into a lot of trouble. Venting to the roof one way or another is a far better way to deal with boiler exhaust in NYC.** So that’s my whole shpiel right there. Good luck with whatever you choose. This is me: http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/gatewayplumbing
daveinbedstuy | 10 years and 11 months ago
Replacing the windows and having them properly installed and insulated will be the biggest contributor to lowering your heating bills. Also, if this is a brownstone with a cockloft (the area between the top floor ceiling and the roof) get insulation blown in. When I had mine done there was a noticable IMMEDIATE effect. Also skylights, if they are old, are big heat loss sources. But new insulated glass ones can be very beneficial.
daveinbedstuy | 10 years and 11 months ago
People will tell you that baseboard heating is ugly but i find it is far less obtrusive that large radiators taking up space where furniture and tables might go. the standard style baseboards (picture attached) have been around for decades. Yes, cast iron baseboards are more efficient as the retain heat longer but are far more expensive. DO not get Slimline baseboards. i have some and they are not efficient at all. pex is the way to go for esier and cheaper installation. Also, consider doing some subfloor heating maybe in the kitchen and baths. It’s wonderful, and especially efficient under tile. A properly designed and installed hot water baseboard system won’t require the constant tweaking that radiator, especially steam, systems require and the installation and plumbing will be a lot cheaper.