Girder Repair vs. Replacement
Hi Everyone! Any help/guidance with this scenario is much appreciated and many thanks in advance to those who answer. We are in the process of purchasing a brownstone in the Bed-Stuy area and just had the home inspection. One of the issues which was revealed (not surprisingly based on previous visits to the home) was that the main support girder (wood) which runs front to back of the home has been damaged by termites (appears not to be currently active) and water infiltration from the front and back walls. The report basically states that the girder should be replaced (with steel) at some point. Further follow up with the inspector indicated that there is no imminent danger of collapse, that in fact the girder has likely been that way for quite a while and a more likely scenario is progressive setting over time. The beam is approx 110 years old and the home appaers to have settled about 2 inches over that time. The seller will not replace the beam but has agreed to “repair” it. My question/concern is whether this can truly be repaired and if so what technique should be used? The seller apparently has his own “team” of people who would do this work (which obviously saves him money), but I am trying to find out what their plan would be. In our eyes, this would be a temporary solution we would obviously have the girder replaced when funds allow. Am I crazy to purchase something like this (even though it does not appear to be an imminent threat to the overall structure), or is this a fairly normal expectation for a brownstone of this age? We love this home, and it otherwise appears to be sound, and honestly, it gets harder every second to find a brownstone in this area that is actually available and somewhat affordable. Sorry to ramble, again, any insight is truly appreciated.
nalusurf
in Painters and Painting & Stripping 12 years and 8 months ago
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5 replies
brucef | 12 years and 8 months ago
I wouldn’t be overly concerned about the floor joists. Usually the first couple to the rear are the damaged ones, and they will probably require replacement. As long as it is OK to demo that portion of the next floor up, that is minor compared with keeping the whole house from sagging further in the process of an un-thinking repair. I was inferring that structural engineers are overly concerned with their license, and oftentimes quite out of touch with hands on knowledge.
nalusurf | 12 years and 8 months ago
Thanks Brucef and Slopemope, all very helpful insight. We were not planning a total reno or a gut, but completely understand that in any situation involving a 100+ year old home what you plan may not necessarily be what you have to do. Our estimate is was in the area of $15-$20K to resolve the major issues; seller won’t budge on price and I understand this as these buildings are in such high demand that the seller will likely have very little trouble finding a buyer if we cannot come to terms. What I am working on is getting the seller to allow us to bring in an engineer just to help us get a better handle on what we are in for, not to try and haggle for a lower price. As Slopemope pointed out, I am concerned about what is going on above the girder, meaning the floor joists which are conveniently hidden behind an apparently new sheetrock ceiling. If I could get the seller to provide proof of previous termite treatment or agree to treating based on findings of inspection, and let us bring in an engineer to look at the girder issue I may feel more comfortable. BTW, our home inspector is also a termite inspector and provides a termite certificate as part of the inspection.
slopemope | 12 years and 8 months ago
I agree with brucef. But while it is good that your inspector caught such an issue, i would take this as a sign of something that needs more expertise than an inspector. In this case, i wouldn’t blink to have an engineer as well as a good termite inspector look at the house. With water infiltration, it is quite possible the termite issue is well beyond what you can see on a visual. Don’t take this lightly, and don’t assume the sagging isn’t coming from just an old bean with minor damage. When our previous owner started their reno, the “hey look at this” moment led to replacing better than half the beams in the whole house, and a total gut instead of a reno. When you know there were termites, and there is still water issues, watch out. However, the market may not bear being able to recoup some or all of these costs, the market is not always rational and depends on the situation (was the property in bidding war, or with multiple bids). You can try, but knowing what you can see ($20k max) is a calculated risk you can take – its not rocket science and is done all the time – , its what you can’t see in this case that could be the real deal breaker. Don’t agree to a seller fix on the way out. It will be guaranteed a job half-baked and managed for cost. In this case, I would recommend taking strict guidance from a professional that “is bound by formulas and a desire to protect his license at all costs.” After all, this requires permits and should be on the up and up
brucef | 12 years and 8 months ago
Please research previous threads on this topic.I know the search engine isn’t very helpful, but you will gain a lot of knowledge when you find them. There is quite a decision tree regarding your issue. It is hard to give advice without better understanding not of the problem, but your plans for the building. I can tell you that a structural engineer is bound by formulas and a desire to protect his license at all costs. There is no way to get an ibeam of sufficient strength into your basement that can span the entire length front to back. Therefore it must be supported by cement filled steel columns, that would themselves be mounted in or on footings, approximately 18-24″ sonotubes or handbuilt forms 16″X16″X36″ deep. Done improperly, (which is the larger % of the time) you end up with a very strong support I-Beam, but in the transition from old to new, you will lose precious inches of deflection. If the house is to be gutted, and all the weight of plaster removed, you may be able to snatch back some of that deflection. But if you are trying to save old plaster walls, the transition from old sagging to new and strong is diificult, and more expensive. Iron work 8K, masonry footings and other shoring 5K. Most old houses have these problems, but the seller’s attempts to remedy sound turrible.
Bond | 12 years and 8 months ago
Based on what the inspector is saying, it sounds like the beam must not be in that bad of shape. With that in mind, my two cents would be that if the house is priced correcly, buy it. Just about any older house you look at in Brooklyn either has had the center beam replaced, or should have the center beam replaced. To really do the job correctly, you will have to have a structural engineer determine the new beam and column sizes as well as column placement. I’ve never done it as a stand alone project, so I can’t give you a reliable quote, but I can’t see it being much over ten grand. Unfortunately, I also can’t see it being much less then that. Quick fixes will probably be additional beams sistered alongside the current beam, and/or some adjustable columns (which is a no-no, but again, everyone does it) underneath the current beam. The alternative is to do what just about everyone else has done and that’s live with it. The downside of doing it at a later date is that when you replace the beam, you while have some shifting and cracking. So don’t paint and plaster the whole house and then replace the beam unless you plan on enough time passing that it will be time to re-paint anyway.