Need to completely do over bad marble floor job
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We just had our bathroom done by a contractor and he completely botched the floor tiling — simple marble hex and dot mosaic. Besides its not being level or flat, the joints are uneven and have dips and holes, you name it. It has to be completely redone — leveled, and retiled. Can anyone recommend someone who did their tiling well? We are in Manhattan, by the way. Also, so I know what to look for — what is the proper way to tile carrara marble tiles — with epoxy grout like Laticrete Spectralock Pro Premium or with a cementitious sanded grout like Laticrete Permacolor? And what do you recommend for sealing — only after or before and after? I appreciate the advice of this forum so much. Thank you in advance! Miffed in Manhattan Thanks!
livingrm
in Bath & Kitchen 13 years and 8 months ago
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redhookdave | 13 years and 6 months ago
Hi! Hope you found someone to help you with your floor by now. If not, send me an email, i’d be happy to take a look at it. Cheers! dave dcrossman357@gmail.com
greenmountain | 13 years and 8 months ago
Oh, I see permalink: same house, two rooms. Your contractor may indeed have had to adapt to quirky angles – it’s called “charm and character.” I can think of a few possible reasons why it did not work, but I would have to see it to tell you what exact combination of reasons caused what you describe. (Green Mountain’s initial consultations are comlimentary, and there is no hard sell) In any case. I don’t do it this way. I love traditional methods and materials, but sometimes the “way we always do it” is neither good nor traditional. It may be just an expedience from a few decades ago. There is a better way. Do you see any mudset bathroom floors tv home improvement shows? Tile floors can be strong and thin, long-lasting and in plane with adjacent rooms and hallways. If you feel you did not get what you paid for, maybe you should go to nyc.gov and under city agencies, click on Consumer Affairs. They don’t test us for quality, but they know where we live.
brucef | 13 years and 8 months ago
Yup, the sub-floor preparation was inadequate. Pouring a new mud bath floor is old school, and you live with the advantages and diadvantages, but you can’t have it both ways. My personal preference is building a new floor as low and strong as possible in wood with Hardi-Backer thinsetted above and below. Most old houses are crooked and curved, neither of which suits tile. Tile wants flat, rigid, and plumb. I disagree with the above knock on epoxy grout, as we use it all the time, well most of the time. But it is not good for an installer who isn’t familiar, real familiar with it. It sets too fast, and won’t come off of porous , uneven tile if your life depended on it, if you let it set (which it does fast). So we definitely impregnate the stone once it is set (or sometimes before it is set), but definitely before applying epoxy grout. The advantage of epoxy is it is very difficult to stain, and it can be cleaned without worry. It’s a shame about the sub-floor, but it sounds as if it has to come all the way out.
greenmountain | 13 years and 8 months ago
I am sorry Permalink, this happened to you too, and sorry about the above dyslexia – spell checker not working. I’m in the directory under “tile and stone.” I am not recommding myself, but If you go back to 8/17/11 you will see some comments by my recent client.
livingrm | 13 years and 8 months ago
I am so grateful to edkopel and greenmt for your detailed, thoughtful responses. One question — a big one, I guess. This contractor says he did tear out the three levels of previous tiles as well as the concrete subflooring and that he re-poured concrete. When I asked why he didn’t use the new concrete to level out the floor, he said because there was a 2 1/2 inch difference (across only 6 – 7 feet wide room) and that would make the concrete on the “low end” too heavy. The concrete he used is supposed to be super water resistant (Portland I type with graded sand, he said). He did not use a cement mortar. He just went straight to thinset. And I think he over-used the thinset, using it to level somewhat. I think that is why some of the tiles are “sinking” in (at different rates, mind you). So now he proposes to just tear out the tile and thinset and pour a self-leveling compound like Latilevel. What do you knowledgeable people think of that plan? And again, if anyone has a different professional to recommend, I hate to throw good money after bad with this same contractor… Thank you again!
kjb | 13 years and 8 months ago
We had the same thing happen to our ceramic tile kitchen floor and, of course, the contractor hasn’t returned our calls since he got paid. Now the tile is cracking and pieces are starting to come up. Anyone have a rec for someone who can redo a floor in brooklyn?
greenmountain | 13 years and 8 months ago
“so you know what to look for…” I can only tell you how I do it. Tile setting is a long tradition, but many new products and methods have been introduced in recent years and decades. Other skilled and experienced setters and professinals disagree. I can not see what type of substrate you have in this picture. The lasting success of a job depends on the preperatioin and installation of substrate. This can seem like a messy, inconvenient and needless expense, but most tile failures, are related to some underlying condition. It is still possible what you have are just sloppy, un-even tiles. I also can not tell if I would recommend removing and resetting a few of them, or a complete reinstallation. Leveling is usually a substrate issue. I set Carrara marble, like most tile, using Portland cement-based thinset mortar. (you asked about grout, but I think you also want to know this) Laticrete is a top quality line, but brand is not the first question in selecting mortar. It comes in white and gray, in this case you want white. Most setters and suppliers will recommend latex-modified thinset, which is gluey and the latex cures with air, whereas Portland cement cures with water. In some applicatioins, little air can penetrate to cure the latex, but because your mozaic tiles have frequent grount lines and are porous, natural stone, air will penetrate, so latex modified thinset is fine and preferable if you need extra adhesion to your substrate, such as if you are tiling over a prior course of glazed or porcelain tile. On the other hand, if you have a cement-based or otherwise apropriate substrate, you would also be fine if you use an un-modified thinset because it “bites” really well to marble. The same compatability issues apply to grout, but you mentioined “Permacolor.” The Laticrete website says this is available in “40 colors.” Porous white marble tile is prone to staining from pigmented grout. If you seal your tile before grouting, you may reduce the stregnth of the portland cement in your grout, and you may not completely control staining. In your picture it appears you have white sanded grout. I recommend you use that again, or choose a color which is only slightly contrasting, not dark and not a distinct color. You will not have a chance to clean off any stains with acid, because it would just ruin the polished finish of your marble. As for epoxy grouts, they are sometimes recommended by architects, engineers and architectural conservaters, but I disagree. Epoxy grout, like “tub-reglazing” is plastic, wtih other particles presumabley sand and marble dust. Making plastic releases (mostly orderless) carcinogenic gas. It is especially un-healthy in poorly ventilated spaces, like many NYC bathrooms. My experience is mostly removing failures where it set up too quickly near a warm radiator, in a warm sunny area, or where the tile setter ran out of time or material. There are other reasons I stay away from epoxy grout. I do use other epoxy products, but only in limitted quantities, under safe conditions, and when traditional adhesives and cement won’t do the job. If your substrate is sound and you are using Portland cement-based thinset, you won’t need epoxy grout. I use water based sealers better called “penetrants” or “impregnators.” The gallon jug I have now is Aqua Mix, Sealer’s Choice Gold, about $100, but unless you use it professionally, buy a smaller amount as it will degrade in storage. Not all water-based penetrants look, work or cost the same. I don’t use silicone disloved in organic solvent, which cost little more than paint thinner and is just as unhealthy to workers and the envoronment. I don’t know about compatibility between the silicone-solvent ones and the water based ones, I only feel confident in reapplying various brands or grades of water-based products over one-another, but I have not identified specific compatability issues. Sealers do not prevent water or other liquids from passing through porous material like marble and traditional grout. You may actually need vapor to pass through materials in bathrooms and “sealing” (such as with epoxy) could cause tile adhesion to fail when ambient moisture tries to force its way out. Penetrants prevent discoloratioin and reaction with acidic food or cleaner by coating calcium and other particles within stone, grout, and porous tile. Membranes stop water and moisture, but are installed prior to setting tile. After setting the tile, calling a stain-protecting penetrant a “sealer” won’t prevent liquid from soaking in, or vapor from passing through.
agdipierro
in Bath & Kitchen 13 years and 8 months ago
To acheive a flat floor, you need to start with a flat substrate. If the existing subflooring is not flat, you will need to tear it out and replace it with a new concrete subfloor or two layers of cement board. After that is done you may thinset the stone tile to the substrate with thinset adhesive by Laticrete or Mapei. Once the installation is complete you will grount and then seal the floor. A cementitious grout should be effective. Ed Kopel Architects, PC