Do I need a permit if renovating kitchen and not changing plumbing rough-ins?

I am planning a kitchen renovation, but it’s essentially a replacement of the existing kitchen with some minor changes in layout. If my calculations are correct, I can pull it off without changing any of the plumbing or gas rough-in locations. However, there will be some changes to electrical rough-ins, as I want to add undercabinet lighting, garbage disposal, and an island. Would it be possible to just hire an electrician to do the electrical work and not have to go through the madness that is an ALT-2 permit with engineer/architect and GC? If I end up going the ALT-2 route, is it possible/legal for a homeowner to pull their own permit? Everything I have read says that a licensed contractor must pull the permit, but I intend to do the non-electrical and non-plumbing work myself (nothing structural, just cabinets, tops, painting, tile, flooring, etc.) What are my options? Thanks Brownstoners!

steele71

in Bath & Kitchen 9 years and 5 months ago

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steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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@redddd That page raises more questions than it answers. “installing new cabinets” is listed as an activity that does not require permits, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, we all know that installing cabinets means installing a new sink & fixture, new countertops, possibly undercabinet lighting, probably a new tile backsplash, etc. Is all of this do-able without a permit? If so, what differentiates this from work requiring an ALT-2? Is it just the fact that none of the rough-ins are being moved? Can I relocate an outlet on my backsplash during this non-permitted cabinet installation? Can I add a new outlet, and a circuit for a garbage disposal? Furthermore, it says that the contractor installing new cabinets must be DCA licensed. Am I allowed to install my own cabinets? -Chris

marciowilges | 9 years and 5 months ago

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Take a look at this link on the Dept of Buildings website. http://www1.nyc.gov/site/buildings/homeowner/renovating-kitchens-bathrooms.page

steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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Thanks. I’m still pretty confused. The plan for now is: -Remove existing cabinets and tops -Remove ~24″ non load-bearing wall at the end of the current countertop. -Slight modification of plumbing rough-ins (small relocation in the same wall) -Electrical rough-in for new (undercabinet lighting, garbage disposal, recessed lights) and existing (backsplash outlets, refrigerator, etc) -Install new cabinets and tops -Install Electrical and Plumbing fixtures The kitchen is going right where the old one was, so it’s not really being relocated, just some changes to layout. From what I am hearing if I get an ALT-2, I have to have a contractor pull the permit. I would rather pull my own permit and deal with plumber and electrician on my own, but it sounds like that’s not allowed. I think I understand the reasoning, a contractor pulls the ALT-2 and then they are on the hook for making sure things are done right. My concern is that since I want to do all the non-electrical/plumbing work myself, a contractor will have his name on the job and subject himself to liability of some sort. What’s a do-it-yourselfer to do?

garshobi1 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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The article below published on Brownstoner gives you a very good overview which type of work in NYC requires a permit or DOB approval, detailing the steps of the application process ? if in doubt I always recommend calling an expeditor who can point you in the right direction before hiring an architect or licensed professional to start the work http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2015/09/permits-and-violations-what-you-need-to-know-before-buying-or-selling-a-property/

ellenlourie | 9 years and 5 months ago

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Most likely it will be LAA. Limited alteration application. If a monetary amount of plumbing work at this location in previous 12 month exceeds 35K then you will need to hire engineer to prepare plans and file plans with DOB.

MASTERELECTRICIAN | 9 years and 5 months ago

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The permit will specifically say ” Electrical Work Permit Dept.Of Buildings”

steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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Thanks! Just trying to clear up the terms here: “A licensed electrician will file only for the electrical work”. File for what type of permit? ALT-3? Or is there some other kind of permit that is just for electrical work?

MASTERELECTRICIAN | 9 years and 5 months ago

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The type of fixtures being replaced is the responsibility of the professional trade that they fall under. A licensed electrician will file only for the electrical work, plumber will do the same for their work. Electrical permits can only be filed by a licensed electrician and for the most part stand alone except for things like c of o changes and gut renovations. As mentioned by others your condo board should be able to spell out what is required by them based upon the scope of work you submit. Check with your insurance broker to see if you are covered by them for work that you do yourself, if you are able to go that route it’s very likely that they will ask you for an insurance certificate naming the condo board, managing agent etc.

steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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So what kind of permit do I need if I go above 2 fixtures? Are you referring to plumbing fixtures, electrical fixtures or both?

ellenlourie | 9 years and 5 months ago

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If you are not changing rough-in, then you can replace up to 2 fixtures without permit.

steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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I get your point, but the rules seem contradictory to me. I’ve seen it mentioned in many places that permits are not needed for “cabinet replacement”, when everyone knows that replacing cabinets means replacing countertops, probably a backsplash, and definitely reinstalling a new kitchen sink, and maybe some outlets and undercabinet lighting. There’s plumbing and electrical in that job, but they presumably aren’t opening the walls and changing the rough-ins, but that is allowed without any permit? To be clear, if I just wanted to hire an electrician to do some work in my condo to add a new outlet and switch, would he need a permit? Would that be an ALT-3, or is there some sort of lower permit for ad-hoc work like that that isn’t really related to a “construction project”?

curated | 9 years and 5 months ago

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An Alt-3 is when there is only one work type. You will not be able to do this with an Alt-3\. The project you are describing has multiple work types (plumbing, electrical, general construction) and so by the letter of the law requires an Alt-2 filing. That being said many condos will allow a project like this to happen with just an LAA plumbing permit and an Electrical Permit. Those permits do not fall under an Alt-3\. They are their own individual work types and permits. Your easiest path is to try and have the building allow you to pull those 2 permits but if they stick to the letter of the law they will require an Alt-2 filing. www.curatedny.com

renovator2 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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You should not need permits to ‘replace’ fixtures, fittings and appliances, assuming plumbed appliances are going back in their approximate locations. You should have received a ‘tenant alteration agreement’ in your closing package, if not request one of the managing agent and keep all correspondence with them simple ‘I’m thinking about REPLACING…’ as they’re all overworked. If there isn’t a managing agent contact the right person on the board. It may also be helpful to talk to other people in the building that have undergone such a ‘replacement’ to find out helpful tips before contacting management. Either way you’ll want to use a licensed and insured plumber and electrician for the safety of yourself and others in the building. The plumber you use can file with the building department and self certify if required. You’ll be spending a lot of time and money replacing your kitchen, and I’ll assume the existing layout can’t be improved as you say, so the only red flag I see may be getting power to the island depending on the floor construction. Unless you already have that figured out you may want to refer to the island as a piece of furniture, which it is without plumbing or electricity.

steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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Thanks curated, For the purposes of this thread, I’m interested in knowing only what the city would require and what I can do within the letter of the law. I know I’ll have to deal with my condo, but I want to have a solid foundation to stand on if I tell them this can be done safely and legally without an ALT-2\. I’d definitely get the electrician and plumber to pull permits and be licensed and insured. Still curious about the difference between ALT-3 and LAA. Would the electrician pull and ALT-3 and plumber pull an LAA? Why wouldn’t the plumber pull and ALT-3\. If I go this route (plumber and elec pull their own permits), what is the inspection process?

curated | 9 years and 5 months ago

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If it’s a condo thats a different story. You need to speak to the managing agent and see what they will require. Most condos would ask for a full Alt-2 filing meaning you’ll need an architect, expediter and GC. Some smaller more laid back condos may ask for just plumbing and electrical permits and some will rarely not even ask for permits if they consider the work to be decorative in nature and will then only ask that anyone that works in the building is insured. www.curatedny.com

steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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No plumbing to the island, but I would need electrical just for one or two outlets in the island, so it’s more than just plopping some cabinets down in the middle of the floor. Thanks for the responses!

espeon | 9 years and 5 months ago

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It’s as Curated said. If you are running new plumbing to the island one could nitpick but should be OK. Also you cannot pull permits as a homeowner. Technically for a condo the contractors should have a Home Improvement Contrator license, and provide certificates of insurance to you as well as any management entity.

daveinbedstuy | 9 years and 5 months ago

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You better check with and abide by your condo rules.

steele71 | 9 years and 5 months ago

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This is a condo ( I am aware that regardless of the DOB’s rules, the condo board may make me get an ALT-2 anyway, but fingers crossed). So if I have an electrician “pull a permit for general wiring”, is that an ALT-3, or something else? Can they hit me with “you’re doing two types of work, that’s an ALT-2”, or is it legit to get an electrician and a plumber to do two separate “small jobs” as part of my DIY kitchen upgrade?