NYC DOB issued partial vacate order on garage, specifics on correcting issue
Hello everyone, I live in Brooklyn, NYC. My garage was issued a partial vacate order by the Dept. of Buildings in NYC. The order stated that one of the walls supporting the structure has begun to lean and there are 2 large vertical cracks that are 3in. deep from the top to the bottom of the wall. Garage is 25x30x16ft with a peaked roof. It also says that it does not have a gutter. I started to ask a few contractors to look at the garage to give me quotes and options. Below are there responses. I want to know what DOB code they are using to tell me that I need to follow either course of action. Im trying not to get scammed. If you can provide me the specific code I can see who is scamming me and how to lift the vacate order.
1) complete demolish and rebuild of the garage over $25K
2) demolish and rebuild of the affected wall only $5K
jeromemax000
in Dept. of Buildings (DOB) 3 years and 6 months ago
11
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11 replies
stevecym | 3 years and 6 months ago
You are a smart man. Have them draw the specs for the rebuild.
jeromemax000 | 3 years and 6 months ago
Thanks everyone, I have 2 engineers coming soon. They said they can do an inspection and if needed do a cut in the floor to figure out what is holding up the garage. Either footings or a poured foundations. DOB in the summons just says remedy “maintain exterior building wall; demolish and rebuild” its a class I violation.
stevecym | 3 years and 6 months ago
Augustiner: the dob and their agent will not tell someone how to fix something like this because if they did, they would be assuming an engineer’s role and responsibility. They told my neighbor who went through this to get a “certification of stability” (which no licensed pe would put their stamp to).
OP, my neighbor went ahead and had some small local contractor rip the walls down and build on the old blocks, at ground level. I think this was done to avoid a full assessment and rebuild which no doubt an engineer would have specified. Since this conversation began, I walked by his garage and looked at the blocks and in ten years, there is a 1/2″ crack in one place and much smaller “fissures” which I take to mean these walls are still moving. In another ten years he will be back to where he was 10 years ago, if something does not fall down first. (He won’t care in ten years).
No doubt there are larger contractor’s who can manage this and probably get away with it without the engineer’s report but you have to be careful. If you price shop and look for the lowe st bid, without following an engineer’s specifications. they will no doubt stop short of what really needs to be done – either because they don’t know or were afraid to tell the truth – and there will be problems later and it will be too late to blame the contractor when those problems occur.
stevecym | 3 years and 6 months ago
This wall is beyond patch. Patches will not stop the movement.
Augustiner | 3 years and 6 months ago
These numbers are on the low side for the scope of work, and certainly don’t include any foundation or electrical work.
If you don’t want to spend a lot to fix the issue look exactly what’s stated as ‘’remedy’ on the summons and do just that.
Maybe you just need to patch the cracks and shim wall and support the roof with a metal post.
stevecym | 3 years and 6 months ago
@cate: once op takes the walls down and has to change the foundation (or the footing below), he/she is essentially doing the entire thing and I can tell from op’s numbers above, it will double the cost.
On single story block buildings like this the walls are not built on a “foundation” like houses with a basement and red brick or wood frame above, but directly on top of the footings. In the case of the garages here in 1920’s queens, it looks as though the blocks are placed directly on the footing and built right to the roof. The block walls become the foundation but if there is something wrong like this, it is what is below; the footing, not the foundation. The footing should be below the frost line. And the job of the footing is to hold the building up in spite of soft soil. That is why they make wider, steel reinforced footings in ares with soft soils. In essence, if the soft soil is the problem, it’s not the soil, but a poorly designed or built footing.
This all may be a little different than the older brownstone construction and modern construction that has poured footings and then a poured foundation wall, “keyed” to the footing below. In 1972, my folks added on to our house by having a footing poured and cinder blocks laid on top of that; that was the last time I had ever seen that done.
My GUESS is, if this person’s garage is built like these here, and that was why I asked if it might be 1920’s (pre 1938 building code), these builders might not have put footings in but dug 2 or 3 feet down and laid block. All of these garage walls here are failing and it is all due to the same issue as the same cracks and movement occur in the same place as if frost pushed up from below and heaved the middle of the walls. The only reason my neighbor got nailed by the dob is it is on an end run, visible to a busy road.
Of course all this is speculation on my part which is why I suggested op get an engineer. Out of curiosity, I hope the op reports back and tells us what the engineer says about the condition of the footings, if there are any.
cate | 3 years and 6 months ago
Get a really good engineer to look and diagnose the underlying problem using real observable facts, not speculation, and determine the appropriate solution. It will cost around $2,000 if two visits are needed. Probably you don’t need to replace the entire thing, likely just the foundation (or possibly strengthen the soil under the foundation). In my experience, a mid size outfit that works on major commercial projects as well as row houses in Brooklyn and has years of experience with your specific structure type would be a good place to start.
stevecym | 3 years and 6 months ago
There are others on here who can. Or maybe start a new post asking for one who knows a lot about foundations and brick/block walls.
You might not have gotten a good response on here because not many of these folks have had to do this on garages. But they certainly know a few engineers.
I can still talk to my neighbor, if you like. I have watched his garage settle all over the place in ten years because i rent it for my business.
jeromemax000 | 3 years and 6 months ago
Thanks, I’ll look up some engineers. Would you recommend anyone?
stevecym | 3 years and 6 months ago
OP, if you wish me to talk to the man who I watched go through this , let me know on here. I know him well and he will tell what he knows, down to cost.
More so than getting “scammed” with contractors, I would worry that they do not consider some other issues and do not price for that and stop short of what really needs to be done (this happens a lot with less experienced contractors who either do not know or really need the job and are afraid to say “but it really needs this and it will double the cost” and when it fails, they think they were taken advantage of). See what I say above about footings. I am not an engineer nor builder, but I have dug footings in my youth and I recall very well how deep they had to go and suspect that for both your garage and my neighbor’s garage to fail in exactly the same way, there is an underlying problem. Is your house a 1920’s house?
It my be worth having an engineer look at this and see if you can get to the “why” this happen. Or you can demo and ask the contractor to check the condition of the footings and their depth an d have an already agreed on price ready in case the footings must be redone.
Alone, as it is now, I do not think the prices are out of line but I can pretty much tell that the footings are not included. If you are worried about what dob codes drive this, I would bet a lot that the dob addresses the footings. I would even venture to say that the dob would want this drawn and filed if you demo all. If this were my house, and I know enough about this to get myself in trouble, I would call an engineer.
stevecym | 3 years and 6 months ago
Ok, I cannot speak to the code but a man on the corner had the very same thing happen. He had them come in a use supports spread all over to hold the roof up and they demo’d 3 walls. The forth was a party wall. They then rebuilt up to the old roof.
Here is the thing. The new block walls are starting to show movement and cracks in only 10 or 12 years and I suspect it is because they built on top of the old, possibly poorly done footings. So keep in mind the original builder might not have treated these like real buildings and the footings might be the source of the problem.
If I see the man in the next day or so. I will ask about his experience.