Stairs from a 2nd floor to garden?
I am buying a 2-family, where the owner apartment is 2nd and 3rd floor, rental apartment is on the 1st floor, and access to the yard is currently only to be had from the basement. I first thought it was a no-brainer to build a deck from the 2nd floor with steps down to the yard, but it sounds like legally, decks can only be 1st floor or lower, and also yard must be 30 feet deep (it’s only 20 feet deep). What about a balcony as opposed to a deck? If the deck or balcony were non-combustible material, does this change the requirements? And if neither a deck or balcony is legal in a 20 foot deep yard, can I still build stairs down to the garden from the 2nd floor? Thanks in advance.
elanag1
in Decks and Porches 11 years and 3 months ago
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16 replies
elanag1 | 10 years and 3 months ago
Parlor floors have different rules than 2nd floors, and I’m not as familiar with them, since mine is a 2nd floor. We have finally moved into our new house, but haven’t done anything about the stairs yet.
ahb271 | 10 years and 9 months ago
Also, I am confused. I found on the DoB site that back stairs, which I thought would technically be a porch, must be non-combustible and can’t have storage space underneath it, but the I see things like this (see pic with stairs): http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2012/05/the-outsider-viewing-garden-in-park-slope/ I saw something similar in my neighborhood the other day and it was visible from the street. Am I confused?
ahb271 | 10 years and 9 months ago
Thanks all. This is a useful thread. I have a similar problem. We are on the parlor floor and I have a window I thought I would build stairs out of down to the ground, turning the window into a door, or we have a window on a fire escape with a ladder, which I thought we could replace with stairs. I’m curious which is easier: completely new stairs, which would create a new egress technically, or fidgeting with the fire escape by making the ladder stairs. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I’m curious how issues were resolved for others, if so, being that you all were writing a few months back.
elanag1 | 11 years ago
We still haven’t closed on the new place, so still trying to figure it out.
alex56 | 11 years ago
I am actually in the exact same situation. Just bought a multi-family in Crown Heights and there is a tenant in the garden apartment, so I will be living without access to the backyard and I’d like to rectify that. What did you end up deciding to do?
elanag1 | 11 years and 3 months ago
There will be no deck for the fire escape type thing to land on… there’s a 20 foot yard, a rental on the 1st floor, so no need and no legality for a deck. Just hoping to make some stairs work somehow. Maybe we should just put in an inflatable slide. Lol. Thanks.
dazednconfused2 | 11 years and 3 months ago
I couldn’t say what will and won’t be approved. So much would depend upon the actual design of the fire-escape-type-thing-y. If it’s to land on the deck, then the deck will need to be steel framed and non-combustible decking (Ipe, Trex, etc are combustible), and will still need that drop-down ladder. Otherwise, I would go back to my previous statement: If you want the stairs to “look” like a fire escape, then they’d better “be” a fire escape, otherwise they will not be approved. That means metal stairs, landings and drop down ladders.
elanag1 | 11 years and 3 months ago
Thanks again Jim. Wow, this is helpful, but also discouraging. The 1st floor will be a rental, and my family will be living on the 2nd and 3rd floors. So, a deck won’t do, because we want to access the yard ourselves. Do you think a glorified fire escape type thing could be permitted?
dazednconfused2 | 11 years and 3 months ago
The following is the zoning section which prohibits stairs to any level above the first floor, at least within a required rear yard: “23-44 Permitted Obstructions in Required Yards or Rear Yard Equivalents In all #Residence Districts#, the following obstructions shall be permitted within a required #yard# or #rear yard equivalent#: Steps, provided that such steps access only the lowest #story# or #cellar# of a #building# fronting on a #street#, which may include a #story# located directly above a #basement#;” You mention the Ocean Parkway special district. I took a quick look to see if I could find an exception to the rear yards. I did see that only 20′ is required. But I also found this: “113-541 Permitted obstructions in required yards or rear yard equivalents For permitted #residential uses#, the provisions of Section 23-44 (Permitted Obstructions in Required Yards or Rear Yard Equivalents) shall apply with the following modifications: (A and B do not apply to this discussion) (c) balconies shall not be a permitted obstruction in #rear yards# or #rear yard equivalents#.” So it seems that if you have a 20′ rear yard, you’re compliant, however you cannot add a balcony. On the other hand, decks are limited to projecting 8 feet into a rear yard, so you can probably have an 8 foot deck, but you might have to file it as lot coverage. Any time we’ve had a deck project past 30′, we’ve had to include it in lot coverage. I’ve never seen that part in print, but it’s a common objection.
elanag1 | 11 years and 3 months ago
Thanks mozeeatupu, that’s interesting, I really would like to know about the stairs. Without the stairs, the yard seems a bit useless. By the way, it’s in a special zone (OP – ocean parkway) with a big setback requirement, which may be why the backyard is only 20′ instead of 30′ – but I don’t know whether this waives the 30′ rule for decks (and still don’t know if it applies to balconies anyway).
mozeeatupu | 11 years and 3 months ago
I don’t specifically see in 23-44 or 23-13 where back yard stairs from balcony are disallowed.
metalwork | 11 years and 3 months ago
Jim did a good job answering your questions, for the stairs, if its metal you are considering to use, you ever thing about using a spiral stair case? “tink tink” 😉
elanag1 | 11 years and 3 months ago
Sorry that I was unclear. The yard is only 20′ deep. You mentioned that decks require a 30′ deep yard, but you said balconies were a whole different ball of wax, and I wasn’t sure whether that ball of wax meant that a balcony is OK in a 20′ deep yard.
dazednconfused2 | 11 years and 3 months ago
Not sure what you mean about the balcony and the 30′ yard. Balconies and decks are limited in size when they project into the 30′ required rear yard. If you have a 40 foot rear yard, the first ten feet of it are not considered part of the required year yard, the active word being “required”. Within those first ten feet you can do all sorts of things with decks and balconies. It’s only within the last 30 feet that the zoning restrictions apply. I say “zoning” because building code issues like non-combustibility, etc. apply wherever the deck or balcony is. If you want the stairs to “look” like a fire escape, then they’d better “be” a fire escape, otherwise they will not be approved. That means metal stairs, landings and drop down ladders.
elanag1 | 11 years and 3 months ago
Thanks, Jim. This is really helpful. Does the balcony also require a 30′ rear yard, or is that only for decks? As for the no stairs from 2nd floor rule… what if the stairs are made to look more like an extra form of egress? Kind of a like a fire escape, even though fire escapes aren’t required in a 2-family, but say we wanted it for peace of mind? Thanks again.
dazednconfused2 | 11 years and 3 months ago
That’s a lot to cover. The short answer is that stairs are not allowed to anything higher than the first story above grade, so no stairs to second floor, regardless of deck/balcony,combustible/non. The rear of the building can be no closer than 30 feet to the rear property line. A deck can protrude 8 feet into the 30′ yard. It can be bigger if the house is more than 30 feet from the rear line. Balconies are a whole other ball of wax. The most common restrictions are that they can project 7 feet into the rear yard, and if projecting into the rear yard, can only be half as wide as the wall from which they project. So for instance on a 20′ rowhouse, a balcony could be 1o’ wide x 7′ deep, if it projects into the rear yard. Like decks, if it doesn’t project into the rear yard, it can get bigger.