fireplace: to open or not to open...
Looking for some input of what we might find if we open up a closed-up fireplace. I don’t know anything about the anatomy of a fireplace or at all what to expect. At first we were thinking about completely removing the fireplaces on all 3 floors (same stack) to recapture more floor area in each of those rooms, but I’m thinking the expense might be too much to justify the little floor space we’ll get. (Hurts, because we really could use that floor space…) But now I’m wondering if it’s worth it to expose them for decorative purposes? It’s a 3 story (plus basement) wood-frame house. There’s no more chimney at the top of the house where this stack is, so I assume it was removed when the fireplaces were closed up. I’m intrigued about whether or not something beautiful could be behind there, or if it will simply be something utilitarian and boring, or maybe it’s not worth the risk (could we be opening up a can of worms…) Can anyone ballpark what it could cost? Should we just leave it be? Would love hear your thoughts… Attached are a couple of photos…One fireplace is in the kitchen behind the range, and the other is on the 2nd floor in a small bedroom.
ps158
in Chimney and Fireplace 10 years and 8 months ago
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ps158 | 10 years and 8 months ago
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I am SO sorry for the very late reply. Cate: Thank you thank you thank you for posting all the links and photos. It is hugely helpful and I am better understanding what the potential is. I LOVE the mantel you found at Build it Green. And that kind of price is totally doable for something that really makes a statement. I’ve posted another photo of the mantel in what will be the very small kid’s bedroom. I think the shelves are wood, but I’ll have to take another look. I am totally convinced now after reading everyone’s posts that we should not remove the fireplaces at all and instead open them up, see what we have, and either install a new mantle or rehab what’s there. We actually have 6 fireplaces in the house – one in each of the front rooms and one in each of the backrooms. It’s tempting to open them all up! I’m thinking maybe we can put our bed in front of our bedroom’s fireplace, but will have to see if the head of a queen sized bed will fit nicely there. (we’re going to have closets flank each side of that fireplace) As for the tin ceilings – we won’t be doing down lights – I actually don’t like those so much, and my husband prefers using lamps anyway. So we’ll just use a single light fixture in the center of each room, w/ some island lighting in the kitchen. Now I just have to make sure our contractor is on board with this! williamsburgguys: love your tin ceilings. I can’t tell which is new vs original – kudos! 🙂
brucef | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Well, The prevailing sentiment from the above comments centers on the desirability of keeping fireplaces/tin trim. Many of the houses now being renovated are of post Civil War vintage, or in BedStuy much later 1890s on. Many of the homes in the earlier neighborhoods (closer to East River) are from earlier periods, the initial row house speculation and sub-divisions of farms 1830-1850’s. For these homes, tin was installed to meet early multiple dwelling fire codes. But back to the question in OP, regarding removal of flues to possibly regain space. I can share some experience in that regard, which has been prompted by the requirement for most new high efficiency gas boilers, namely that existing masonry flues must now be lined with flexible metal liners. Working backwards, replacement of an inefficient oil fired heating system leads obviously to a gas boiler, then trigger the flue liner requirement, which results in a formula that determines the liner dimensions required by the selected gas appliances. Next question is can a liner of that size be drawn down the existing masonry flue? We keep a selection of drawing caps, that we pull down with rope to determine if the liner will fit past unseen obstacles etc. So what to do if the liner won’t fit? if necessary, the flue has to come out if you are backed into a corner not literally) Modern approved B-Vent has zero clearance requirements, as long as it to non-flammable (metal stud box with drywall). Bear in mind that the hearth usually has no back course of brick. There have been previous threads regarding smoke from a neighbor’s house etc. What does that mean “has no back course of brick”???? That means that the party wall (usually two bricks thick) is only one brick thick in the back of your fireplace. In other words that one course of brick (that belongs to your neighbor, not you) is all that separates you from his living space. Scary, but true. So, there are quite a few complications that come with removing flues. 1\. There will a big hole where the flue used to be. 2\. There probably be a big hole where the hearth used to be (boxed out with mortised joists), but once the brick arch falls down, there is another big hole that needs to be framed, and new sub-floor. 3\. You need to install heavy angle bridging the flue, to support the new 2nd row of bricks that have to be installed where there’s none in back of flue (see scary reference above) 4\. Huge mess – we’re talking about tons of brick and old mortar. Nothing that confident adventurers should fear, just lots of rough carpentry, demo, and patching. But you will recover a LOT of space. All the above assumes a brick house, I did notice that OP said wood frame house, but 98% of my experience is with masonry only walls. Good Luck, Bruce
williamsburgguys | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Love love love those builtins. I see your fireplace is still recessed somewhat – probably enough to clear the chimney hole to prevent soot and stuff from falling constantly when the wind blows. You wouldn’t gain much by removing the metal wall. I think ours is maybe 12-14″ deep in total. Those old Brickset ranges were really shallow and mostly just fit the hole for the smoke to go out. I do love them for their antique factor, however not something to fire up for a quick pizza 🙂 How times have changed. When we were redoing the back yard and tilling, raking, and getting ready to seed, we had to remove bag after bag of old coal cinders that were buried just under the top layer. Apparently back in the day our previous owners chose to dump their coal ash in the back yard rather than set it out for the ashman.
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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If you could post another photo of the mantel with the shelves above it, I would love to get a better look. If you resize the photo to small or medium, it will upload better. Also curious how old you think your house is and what area you are in? (Because that could tell us something about the age of the house.)
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Here’s a post about replacing our mantel which shows what a faux painted slate mantel might have looked like. There are two — scroll down to the last photo to see the one in original condition with its summer cover intact. Behind that is a space with walls and back made of brick. There may have originally been an insert in here to hold coal; it was never for a wood fire. These slate fireplaces did not have tile surrounds, and the hearths were usually slate as well. http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2012/11/photo-pool-challenge-replacing-a-mantle/ Here’s another post, about the Crown Heights house tour, with fireplaces galore. The fourth photo down shows a totally original fireplace complete with its original and still working gas insert. (There’s also a kitchen with a built-in range; the tile behind it on the wall is new.) http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/blog/2013/10/inside-crown-heights-historic-homes/
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Sometimes the tin is original, sometimes not. Depends on the house and the period. It was very big circa 1890-1920.
no-permits | 10 years and 8 months ago
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i could be wrong, but I always thought tin was not original to these houses. thought it was added later for fire code when converted to multiple dwellings. regardless, it’s old and is nice. you shouldn’t mess with it much. electric can be snaked through very very easily. it’s done all the time around fragile plaster molding and medallions. your contract is either lazy or has no care for historical preservation. @resident2 agree with you. we are stewards of these buildings for future generations. other people put too much of their own “mark” on these places.
rh | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Resident2, nobody is talking about reproduction “details”. You can totally replace details with period salvage that probably came from a house right down the block. I agree that you don’t buy a historic home only to strip it of it’s charm, but if it’s gone, Home Depot isn’t your only option. Plus, there’s no harm in carefully removing and replacing the same detail.
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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As for the electrical, you can save the tin ceilings if you aren’t too demanding about the light fixtures you are installing. In the case of our kitchen, we weren’t putting in downlights or anything like that — just three holes and boxes for regular fixtures. How they ever got boxes in there without disturbing the tin, I don’t know, but they did a great job. It’s extremely important to know where you want the lights, because once you make a hole, you can’t change it. (Except by patching, which would be obvious.) The location of beams could also prove an obstacle. If, for instance, there is a beam exactly where you want a fixture, it might not be feasible to cut out a bit (not that you would to anyway) since the tin will be in the way. However, this is easily worked around. In the case of a hanging fixture over a kitchen table, for example, you could located the box just to the side, then loop the fixture on a cord from a hook in the beam exactly where you want it (hope this makes sense). Your parlor floor should have medallions over old gas jets where the overhead lights should be, but sounds like it doesn’t? Also you don’t strictly need overhead lights in a living room — sconces and lamps could do the job. With our electricians, we typed up specific directions about what we wanted, and marked the location of all plugs with crosses made of blue painter’s tape. They don’t need to break open ceilings to run wires — they do it through the walls — unless, do you have elaborate plaster moldings on the upper cornice/cove/top of the wall area?
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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If your mantel is slate, not wood, and you strip it, be advised you will expose the original stone (not the original faux painting) and some of the slate may be mismatched colors of blue, green, etc. Still very pretty. Just depends on what look you want. Also it’s much easier just to paint!
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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You can find lots of examples of painted mantels in the book “English Decoration” by Ben Pentreath. (It’s a wonderful book.) I can’t find the exact example I was thinking of but his website should give you an idea. Here’s a thread with lots of painted mantels although because they are English they are much older — these are 1780-1830s, I think. . http://www.benpentreath.com/interiors/projects/dorset/
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Here’s a photo of a stove (not a range) sitting in a fireplace (plastered). This is from a house museum and is a re-creation so don’t take it too seriously but it gives you an idea of what some of the stoves looked like. I bet this was more typical of a tenement apartment. Across the way from us a tenement burned down in a fire many years ago but on the chimney wall of the house next door still remain all the mantel shelves from all the apartments. They are black iron shelves with fancy black iron brackets with a scroll design.
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Here is a link to a photo of a kitchen in Clinton Hill. There is a 36-inch (circa 1950) Chambers range sitting in the open fireplace on the slate hearth. The back of the firebox is natural brick. Everything else has been plastered (or painted). Incidentally, if you look under the sink to the right you will see the original bead board that originally covered the walls. . http://www.pinterest.com/pin/149181806376185406/
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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OK, I can’t find the original photo, but here is a link to where I uploaded it to Pinterest in 2011\. It shows an original 19th century range built into a hearth in a Bed Stuy house. Everything else in the photo is much later. The walls and hearth have been covered in faux panelling. I am not sure if the wall behind the range would have been plastered or exposed brick. . http://www.pinterest.com/pin/149181806376128905/
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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I’m going to post a series of photos here. This one shows our kitchen fireplace in 2012\. It is not open. However, it gives you an idea of what the hearth looks like. The top of the chimney is plastered, and I’m sure always was. Then there is a slate mantel. Below the slate the mantel, the two legs of the chimney are brick and were always natural red brick, although unfortunately someone painted them so I did too. Inside the actual fireplace itself would have been red brick as well. Ours is covered with a piece of metal painted white. Just as a point of interest, our kitchen was originally painted darkish green (not pine, exactly — Calke Green on the Farrow & Ball color chart). The bead board all around was fir and stained dark brown. I am not completely sure, but I suspect the dish cupboard was faux painted (and slightly transparent) to look like oak. Quite a lot going on here. So although the kitchen is dark, the red and green would have been a little bit jaunty. It’s possible the floor was just the fir boards, but doubtful. They may have had some crazy Victorian pattern linoleum — or that pattern that looks like rough tile, which has been in production since linoleum was invented. We have bits of it (from a later era) under various floor coverings. The only light in the room was one J-shaped gas sconce hanging in the corner over the sink. And of course they would have had lamps. You can also see the tin ceiling. The off center hole in the sort of middle of the room was already there. Our electricians added the two holes over the sink and another hole over the fridge for more light fixtures. The fireplace could have held a built-in range or a stove. The difference is that the stove would be freestanding in the fireplace, sitting on the slate hearth, and a pipe would go up the chimney from the back of the stove. I would like to strip the brick to get back to the original red brick. (BTW our kitchen is circa 1892.)
cate | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Williamsburgguys, they don’t have our pattern. I don’t which room is which in the photos you posted above, but the tin in the red room looks old to me and the tin in the other two rooms looks new to me. Am I right?
williamsburgguys | 10 years and 8 months ago
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There would definitely be brick behind that kitchen wall fireplace – covered most likely by plaster with broken edges around where they removed the old brickset hearth. Chipping off the plaster is messy, but easy and a hammer and thick scraper/chisel. Vacuum off the remaining dust, then brush on a quart of water based polyurethane. Probably where the old hearth opening was is either a filled in brick wall or maybe even a wooden makeshift wall of some sort. We experienced both here – a couple fireplaces simply had plywood and sheetrock over them, one they had filled in with a really bad brick job then covered with thick beadboard. The kitchen hearth was already open with the old range inside.
williamsburgguys | 10 years and 8 months ago
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Here are 3 examples of our house’s tin. The small bedroom tin is 100% new using old patterns. The dining room is 100% old. The parlor is half new and half old as we took out a wall and had to fill in. Can you tell any difference in the tin?
williamsburgguys | 10 years and 8 months ago
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We bought all our fill-ins, repairs, and even the entire basement ceiling tin from Tin Ceiling Express online at a very decent price – what I would consider cheap – and screwed in 1x3s on a 12″ center and nailed up the tin ourselves. It was easy. I think we did the entire basement remodel, in real tin, prob a 19 x 35 ft area, for less than $1000\. They have every pattern out there that was in use in the 1800’s. We painted them with thick roll on paint after priming them, and now you cant tell what was old tin and what is new.