Seeking mid-renovation advice on removal of brownstone wall

Hi – I am in the middle of renovating the parlor floor of townhouse. About four weeks ago, we removed parts of two interior walls that my contractor said were not load-bearing and did not require support beams. This week, I noticed that two separate doors on the higher floors started to become sticky in their frames, which leads me to wonder if the house may be settling ever so slightly (causing the doors to be out of alignment with their frames). This may be nothing, or it may be something. I understand that the party walls and connecting joists in these 20′ wide brownstones carry the load, but some of the interior walls may be ‘stiffening’ walls that provide some support. All my plans are DOB filed/approved and we had no requirements to put new beams in place of the walls that have come down, but I am wondering if it would be wise to do so. Appreciate any thoughts from architects/builders on the site, as well as any recommendation for a structural engineer who could consult/inspect the work in progress (ideally for an hourly consulting fee; I don’t need someone to come to do a complete home inspection). Thanks

CGDad

in Brownstoner Renovation 11 years and 6 months ago

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metalwork | 11 years and 5 months ago

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Andrew Goodrich was recommended to me as well. haven’t contacted him as of yet.

brownstnarchitect | 11 years and 5 months ago

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i renovate brownstones all the time. and i see this all the time, my partner is a structural engineer which most architects do not employ on most alt2 renovation. its a BAD idea to not put back a beam especially with a 20′ brownstone, i add a beam on 15′ wide ones. unfortunately i see this all the time, it will be fine for the first few years then there will be a 2 or 3 inch bow in the floor, your furniture will not sit right when on the walls and lean into the room. the architect should have put a beam no more than 1 foot in either direction of the main house beam to pick up the load. and there are ways to even hide this beam in the floor joist so the beam is hidden.

cserman | 11 years and 6 months ago

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Hi, I’m a structural engineer and have experience with the type of work your describing. I would be happy to discuss your project with you. You can visit www.sermanengineering.com for more information. Best, Chad

CGDad | 11 years and 6 months ago

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So, after consulting on this, the answer was “it depends”. My joists are a pretty hefty 3″x 12″, spaced 18″ apart, and run the complete 20′ span from party wall to party wall. This makes them sufficient to support the load without relying on the wall running parallel to the stairs separating the parlor from the hallway. If the joists were less than 10″, then that wall may in fact be structural to carry the load. It is entirely possible, as jockdeboeraia suggested, that walls that were not originally meant to be load-bearing became so over time, which could cause some shifting once I removed a section of that wall. But the advice I received was putting in a new support beam can’t hurt, but is probably unnecessary. If things above my parlor floor do indeed shift, then the way to remedy it is by sistering up those beams above, not by jacking everything up below and putting in a new header.

brucef | 11 years and 6 months ago

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The wall in question is technically a stiffening wall. As such it can be removed as long as usage/egress/light isn’t ompromised. While the above makes absolutely no sense to anyone with half a brain, the DOB has a cruel sense of humor. If you thought that the installation of a paralam or other header was a wise course of action, you are not allowed to depend on lower, intact sections of that wall to support that new header. Ironwork beams must come up from a footing at foundation level to support your header which isn’t required. Everything that isn’t forbidden is mandatory.

hdlbklyn | 11 years and 6 months ago

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You are correct DIBS. Houses over 17′ wide do not span fully from party wall to party wall. If you have a 20′ wide house chances are very good that the bearing wall running front to back parallel to the stair is indeed structural. I’m talking STRUCTURAL support not just a stiffening wall. Get this looked at immediately!

daveinbedstuy | 11 years and 6 months ago

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I always assumed that you could not remove that wall separating the aprlour from the hallway since, in the basement, there’s a load bearing beam and supporting posts that are integral to that wall and, if you did, you really needed a structural beam at ceiling level to support the second floor from eventually sagging. Most renovations I’ve seen incorporate a new LVL or steel beam when that wall is removed. But, I’m not an engineer. If there are posts in the basement, they are there for a purpose.

brucef | 11 years and 6 months ago

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Trim the doors and observe for a few months. In the uber-cautious regime now at DOB, there is no way anything dangerous would be approved. Andrew Goodrich in Prospect Park is helpful, you can use my name (Bruce)

CGDad | 11 years and 6 months ago

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Can anyone recommend a structural engineer for a consult?

BSDOD | 11 years and 6 months ago

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You can always sister the joists on the upper floor where the walls came down, this will keep the look you want, and give you some added peace of mind.

jockdeboeraia | 11 years and 6 months ago

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Your architect/structural engineer can tell you what is load bearing and not. Most brownstones have a load bearing wall running along the stair. In an old house, walls that were not originally designed to be load bearing become so over time especially if the there are other walls in the same or near the same place above.

cate | 11 years and 6 months ago

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FWIW, I attended a lecture about brownstone structure by an architect who specializes in restoring them and she said what you said — the non-load-bearing walls are “stiffening” walls. She didn’t use that word — she may have said all the walls in these houses are load bearing to some extent. It’s the ones that go across the width of the building, as the joists do, that are more minor and don’t do as much of the work. The main load bearing wall is the one over the main beam, which runs from the front of the house to the rear, parallel to the party walls.

CGDad | 11 years and 6 months ago

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Yeah I’m not at all worried about the doors, which is an easy fix. I am worried about how much the house might settle and whether I need to put in some supporting beams before I close up all the walls. If the house settles a fraction of an inch, no big deal, but if I could see some joists settling a few inches over time, that is another matter altogether.

deanbh | 11 years and 6 months ago

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pop the hinges on the doors, get a circular saw and set it up to take 1/8th of an inch off the top, problem solved. (or a sander or electric plane…..but might not square up perfectly). The bigger issue will be when you have plaster joins and sheetrock slip where the tape can no longer hold the slight movement and cracks start to appear. Unless you see any dramatic movement you can relax though, basically its just the house resettling into its new position, will take work over the next 12 months to patch up etc but not the end of the world.