Renovation in Historic District?
Just as a hypothetical question before considering this more seriously, does anyone out there have experience doing a big renovation project on a brownstone in a historic district? Ie, how difficult is it to get approval, and what sort of timeframe does it take to get all the necessary permits in place assuming you are very organized and on-top of things with a good architect and contractor? Would you be tied up sitting on an empty house for months waiting for all the permits to get approved, or is it something that you might theoretically be able to accomplish during the closing process so that from day #1 you’d be able to start renovating? In terms of scale, lets assume a worst-case scenario of converting a muti-family into a single family, re-doing exisitng plumbing and electrical, installing central air, new kitchens and bathrooms, new facade, new yard, etc etc. And how much easier is it if you’re not in a historical district (or does it even make a big difference)? Apologies in advance if this seems like a silly question to some, or if it’s been covered previously (I couldn’t find an exact answer). Thanks!
st78n3c
in Brownstoner Renovation 13 years and 5 months ago
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BHS | 13 years and 5 months ago
You may well be waiting several months during the design phase and waiting for DOB permits, and potentially waiting for your contractor to become available. It’s not the historical district that could cause that (again, unless you are proposing exterior changes or have Landmarks violations that would need to be corrected) it would be the time required for DOB permits and the complexity of your job.
jparnass | 13 years and 5 months ago
I think Architect66 is making a good point that you will have to allocate time for design and the production of the construction documents before you can begin the build. Even if you only file very schematic drawings for the permits, you will want to have the wall layouts and locations for plumbing and any new HVAC to avoid having to file amendments later. In a best case scenario, if your architect could start as soon as you are in contract, you are still looking at a minimum of three to four weeks (assuming you love everything they design and there are no significant revisions) before you will be ready to file. And then don’t forget to allow at least three weeks for bidding and contract negotiations with your contractor. I would be happy to discuss this further and give you some estimates for schedule and cost. We are modern brownstone specialists: Jordan Parnass AIA LEED AP http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/jordanparnass
st78n3c | 13 years and 5 months ago
Thank you again to everyone for the information. I’m fairly new to this website but am finding it to be extremely worthwhile. Thanks to all involved! I think this all still sounds reasonable to consider taking on, so I’m sure I’ll have more questions if and when I take the next steps. I just wanted to make sure that if I bought something in a historic district, I wouldn’t be sitting on carrying costs for 5-6 months before I could even start renovations. This certainly doesn’t sound like the case, especially since the facade is something that could be tackled at a later date after move-in if necessary.
mike-the-expeditor | 13 years and 5 months ago
Yes I have experience in this area, and, as others have suggested, the nature of your improvements/renovations will determine who long it will take between when you file for permits and approvals and when you’re able to get started. Assuming you’re in Brooklyn, Certificates of No Effect (CNEs) take 30-35 days from the LPC. You’ll need one before you’ll be able to pull work permits. There are varying strategies involving self-certifying plans and other maneuvers for you to quickly begin work. Some are more expensive than others but without knowing the (details of your) plans it’s hard to give a concrete, actionable answer. Feel free to contact me off-the-board if you want me to review your situation and offer specfic strategies.
BHS | 13 years and 5 months ago
Yes, if there are no changes to the exterior that would require Landmarks approval, you would be getting a certificate of no effect prior to the DOB permits, which is fairly quick turnaround. If you are proposing to make changes to the exterior (other than maintenance to intact historical elements) then you would need to file for Landmarks approval of those changes which will take more time and may not be approved depending on what you propose.
architect66 | 13 years and 5 months ago
Yes, this is what we architects do. It’s not all castles in the sky! You are sort of correct regarding the interior work – for the most part, it can be addressed with a “Certificate of No Effect” from Landmarks which is usually granted in 30 days. You will still need to get a permit for the interior work from the DOB, and it is more expensive and complicated to file two applications for the same work. With regard to getting the seller to sign permit applications, a few sellers have been known to do that, but mostly they don’t. Their lawyers typically counsel them not to do it – just wait ’til closing. Anyway, you will need to complete your design and plans before filing. That is non-trivial task. It could take your architect and engineer several weeks to put together plans for filing that are to your liking.
jeff80 | 13 years and 5 months ago
The architect is correct about the exterior work. From your question it sounds like you want to do a new facade and yard so it’ll have to get approval from the landmarks. If you are not altering any of the details or designs in the facade then it’s a very simple process. The architect or the contractor can easily get the approval for this. Typically from our experience the time frame for approval has been 2-4 weeks after paperwork submission for the facade work.
st78n3c | 13 years and 5 months ago
Thanks for the answers so far! Architect, it sounds like you’re quite familiar with this sort of stuff. “It will depend on the work that you want to do.” – Am I understanding correctly that only exterior work needs to be approved by landmarks, and that anything internal such as changing the floorplan or “gutting” the house doesn’t need approval beyond city permits? This would seemingly make things a lot easier, as the internal work could get started much sooner while the external work goes through the appropriate process. “Is your multi-family, theoretically, being delivered vacant?” – This is all just speculation, but let’s say yes for simplicity. And hypothetically couldn’t the permit applications be placed in the name of the seller and then transferred to the name of the buyer (assuming this was part of the negotiated closing between cooperative parties)?
cupolacoffee | 13 years and 5 months ago
Can you get permits for a property you don’t own? No. Is your multi-family, theoretically, being delivered vacant?
architect66 | 13 years and 5 months ago
It will depend on the work that you want to do. If your scope of exterior work is minor – leaving the exterior as-is with repairs or patching, or doing minor work like window replacement or adding a light fixture – you can likely get the work approved by landmarks at staff level – without a hearing. This is true even if you are “re-stucco-ing.” However, if you plan to do a lot of work – add a rooftop extension or change window sizes, etc, you may need to have a public hearing. The difference between the two alternatives is pretty stark. Without a hearing, you can likely get your approval in a month or two, and the landmarks approval process can run in parallel with the department of buildings filing. On the other hand, if you have to have a public hearing, the approval can take more than twice as long. There are ways to get a head start on some of the work by filing multiple applications – you might be able to rapidly get approvals for demo work and replacing mechanical and plumbing equipment, for example. You would then need to file a separate application to (for example) add an extension or change the occupancy, etc. This is more expensive and more of a headache to deal with, but it can get the work on the site going more quickly.