Mediocre renovation work, what to be on the lookout for
Hi all, I am looking at a brownstone in the Bed Stuy area that’s currently being renovated. It is not a gut renovation, as the place seems to have been in good condition before. The agent says that the electrical and plumbing have been fully redone. However, the work being done is clearly shoddy. There are exposed pipes, some of which have been clumsily boxed, leaving an interstice between the box and the wall for dirt and crud to accumulate in. They’ve installed floor radiators which are eyesores, the pipes go through the floor without pipe flanges (though perhaps they intend on installing those later?). Old, wooden, indoors, window shutters have been glued to the wall and daubed with a thick coat of paint instead of being removed or replaced. The shutter is glued at an angle, leaving about 100 cubic inches of space between the wall and the shutter – and, why, no, of course they did not bother to paint between the shutter and the wall, I mean, “whatever”, right? I’m trying not to let that influence me too much. Even though doing mediocre work like this is a shame and a waste of money, it doesn’t mean it can’t be fixed by another contractor. But… 1) What type of cost am I looking at to correct those issues? 2) More importantly, what do they tell me about bigger ticket items, what should I be on the lookout for? Since they seem to be cutting corners, I worry that – they might only have changed the sockets instead of putting in new wires (even though they said they redid the entire electrical) – they might have left some old plumbing pipes in place – they might not have bothered checking the joists and masonry
murbard
in Brownstoner Renovation 10 years and 5 months ago
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23 replies
zag0r | 10 years and 5 months ago
The whole point of flipping is to do the least amount of work for the highest profit. It’s main purpose is to conceal defects and provide a vaguely presentable snapshot to all parties involved in the selling process. The banks are more concerned with financial statements and the appraisers are probably scapegoats. This is the mentality as doing proper work becomes ever less affordable for the homeowner because doing proper work is a costly process. Consider a TV show comparison, This Old House vs. Flip or Flop.
slopefarm | 10 years and 5 months ago
Murbard, I do think brucef overstates his case bit because any time anyone buys a previously-owned house where some renovation has been done, there is a risk some of the work is unpermitted and not up to code. It is not, as a practical matter, the case that every time someone opens up a wall to fix or renovate some aspect of their house, they end up having to gut reno the whole shebang. But you need not be distracted by this argument to take a hard look at the problems in your scenario. The problem that I see is that you’ve described enough shoddy work and corner cutting on stuff that is easy to see and that could have been done properly at little additional cost, that you should (or at least I would) be really worried about what else they did that you can’t see. Other unscrupulous flippers have at least the sense to make the visible stuff look pretty and only cut corners where you can’t see it (but where the true dangers lurk). Your guys don’t even seem to know what good work looks like. You are paying a premium for a renovated home and you are going to have to renovate a lot of it again because it will be defective, whether or not the DOB makes you do it. We went through this — we bought from a flipper who was in mid-renovation and we were to close upon completion and before we closed we found so much shoddy, non-code, and frankly hazard-causing work that we refused to close, ended up in a lawsuit, and settled for a reduced price, after which we re-renovated the house including mechanicals from scratch (not a gut- we preserved a lot of details). Having done this, I do not advise it — it is not for the feint of heart or tight-of-wallet. It set us back years in terms of time and money. Buy a fully renovated house where you can see the job was filed — shift neighborhoods a bit if you need to to make this affordable for you. Or find a way to finance the renovation and buy a fixer-upper. But what you are describing is the worst of both worlds. Or, make your seller a super low-ball offer, buy it as is, and gut renovate it, though he probably won’t take that deal.
brucef | 10 years and 5 months ago
You make a good point, but we are talking two different scenarios. When I was talking about down the road not getting top dollar, I was thinking that there would be another renovation round that you would want to perform to spiff up for sale. That is the time that getting approvals and closing out permits trips you up with a purchaser’s bank. In your case, the bank is oblivious because there is no open permit. Because there was no permit. Where I was going is that you are stuck with the illegal work done by the flipper, if and when you try to do legitimate work later. The only person from the bank who ever sees the building is the appraiser, who in a curious way may not notice inconsistencies. Title work will discover open building permits, but only an appraiser might notice the kitchen on the wrong floor etc. The important takeaway is that you are signing up with the devil, and the only way to become a vrgin again is gut reno.
murbard | 10 years and 5 months ago
brucef: one of the reason to buy from a flipper is financing, you don’t get 3.5% 30-year interest rate to buy a shell and pay for renovation. If I had the cash lying around, I’d pay for a gut renovation myself, no doubt. Which brings me to the point that I do have a bank in the picture, something the seller is aware of. If lack of DOB permits were the deal breaker you suggest they are for financing, why hasn’t this problem surfaced? If the seller expected me to be unable to obtain financing, why waste time dealing with me?
dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 5 months ago
brucef brings up an important point. Anyone who wants to do some additional work on the house (legitimately with permits) will be forced to rip everything out if the inspector pays a visit. Which means it could potentially be better to sell the house rather than make changes to it. Don’t get me wrong – people do illegal renos on top of illegal renos, but that is a little harder to do these days without a neighbor calling the DOB on you.
brucef | 10 years and 5 months ago
Sorry for the late reply, but I have x-ray vision and can see the problems from 100 miles away. Tomorrow morning I have electrical inspection 7:30 AM, and we were in excellent shape before flunking our initial inspection. SO if you are thinking it won’t be so hard to fix again later, you are mistaken. They are flat out lying about having done the electrical. Yes, their sloppy guy who knows a little about wiring up a flip did add some unlicensed circuits, and connected up some old runs, but all that will be trash if you (or whoever) buys this disaster in the making. Without digressing to plumbing and heating, brownstoners need to be aware of an underlying fact. Once your house is ruined by hacks, you can never go forward legally. You will be forced into a “nether” world of future illegal work. And let me tell you your pot of gold at the rainbow won’t be waiting for you. You’re probably thinking that x number of years from now my house will be worth xxxx dollars and someone will want to buy it and I will cash out. You are half right. You will only be able to sell as a shell (reduced pricing) because your buyer will have a bank in the picture, and the bank won’t go for your illegal improvements. The same folks who would be willing to pay top dollar are in general somewhat clever. Sure you might find a buyer who doesn’t check and pays cash. If you haven’t spent time actually getting jobs approved at DOB, you haven’t a clue what truly goes on. DOB is geared to true gut renovations (think condos) or new construction. A reasonable person might assume that the DOB is reasonable, but it ain’t so. They have an unfortunate bias against restoration and renovation. You can huff and puff about how preserving perfectly good features from the past are worth re-using, but they aren’t interested. So how does this all relate to your prospective purchase? Less headache if you buy the shell and properly renovate. paying for a flipper’s shoddy work is a waste. It screws you in the future because any future approval will NOT GRANDFATHER their illegal work. Feel better now Green Mountain?
cate | 10 years and 5 months ago
Sounds like the cellar is original, not covered up. Our cellar had original plaster ceilings. But if they really did a whole-house electrical upgrade, pretty sure you’re going to see some big ol’ holes punched in that ceiling! Maybe they were very neat and cleaned it up (ha). Your inspector will be able to tell you if the entire electrical system has been upgraded, and if the placement of outlets is to code, although he can’t see through walls and see if they cut corners there (by not using BX cable throughout, for example).
dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 5 months ago
…..and your bank account….. assuming slope farm meant a freshly rocked ceiling intended for purpose of coverup, which this seems to not be the case.
catboot | 10 years and 5 months ago
It’s good that you are asking questions and being diligent about what you’re buying. Since it seems that you’re somewhat unfamiliar with some of the common issues with brownstones, I feel I should give you a heads up: renovated or not, old houses have problems, and it’s not unusual to start fixing something and end up fixing 12 other things that were triggered by that first that needed fixing in the first place. I wouldn’t dream of trading our 120-year old house for a newly built one, but it’s not headache-free living. If this is the first place you’re buying where you are fully responsible to the upkeep, without the benefit of a super or a landlord, keep in mind that this is what you’re signing up for. In my opinion nothing beats the character of an old house, but it will, on occasion, test your patience and your bank account.
Arkady | 10 years and 5 months ago
Slopey – I think it’s a law that a ceiling has to be ‘rocked if there’s a dwelling above.
slopefarm | 10 years and 5 months ago
Whether it is sheetrock or something else, if the cellar is just storage and mechanicals, i’d want to see the joists and mechanicals. If they threw up a ceiling, I’d be suspicious they are hiding conditions they do not want you to see.
murbard | 10 years and 5 months ago
Thanks all for the comments. I took some pictures of the basement and the cellar (not certain which you mean) and in both cases the ceiling is, hum painted white, like the wall. So I’m not sure if it’s sheetrocked or not (not very familiar with this). Something looks a little off with the cellar ceiling… the cellar walls are bricks, but the cellar ceiling doesn’t make a very neat angle with it, there seems to be an interstice. I’m definitely going to pay close attention to that. @NeoGrec: Yes! Smart outlet placement is so important, thank you! Do you have a rough estimate of the cost of such finishes, for a 3,000 sq feet home?
NeoGrec | 10 years and 5 months ago
In my experience there are very few really thorough, demanding inspectors out there. Most just want to take a quick look, write a prefunctory report and collect their fee. I think “Richard Parry” who Dave mentions is actually Richard Perri: 718.828.9116; phi@richperri.com. He knows his stuff but be ready to ask a LOT of questions. Oh, the other thing to mention is that many of the issues you’re describing are the fussy, labor-intensive skilled tasks that many GCs can’t be bothered with. They cost a lot to get right (wood stripping, precise finish carpentry, plaster skim coating, well-thought out placement of outlets and light fixtures, door hardware etc.) but they will make all the difference to the quality of the finishes in your home and your experience of living there.
slopefarm | 10 years and 5 months ago
the real problem is that the price will reflect renovation when you are going to incur the costs of re-renovating. Not ideal. If they are cutting corners on the stuff that is visible, they are likely cutting bigger corners on the stuff you can’t see. As my grandmother would say, I know from whence I speak. Richard Perri is a great recommendation for an inspector, but he can’t see behind the walls. Start with the mechanicals in the basement — is the basement ceiling sheetrocked? that would be a sign that they are hiding conditions — water damage, crappy plumbing or electrical, etc. You want to vet this for the right electrical — wiring is balanced, there is sufficient amperage, outlets to code in every room, etc. My gut tells me to stay away from this one unless you can get it at a price that accommodates a full reno by you, but if you must try to have it, kick the tires really, really hard.
dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 5 months ago
I bought a flip with no electrical permit. Guess what – it wasn’t done to code. I have already re-run some circuits. If the walls are drywall, its easier to fix things. If plaster, you’re a little screwed without bigger work. If i were you, i would first request from the agent that you are serious but need to verify with plumber and electrician the work done. If they are not good with you calling, it is a bit of a warning sign. This happened to me, i was not allowed to contact the GC who did my reno and they (finally!) admitted that it “ended badly”. I got a deal and low balled in a bad market, but i’ve still done some major re-work. If it was in a hot market, i would have been ignored and the it would have been bid up more than it deserved. Just do your due diligence.
cate | 10 years and 5 months ago
The three examples you mention are minor details. An inspector will focus on the crucial and expensive systems such as structure, roof, leaks, boiler, plumbing, and electrical. If they say the electrical and plumbing are all new, I’d want proof, permits, and to see that it was installed by licensed people and to code. A carpenter could fix the boxes and shutters for you, though some of it might be tedious and relatively expensive. Sounds like the walls are not straight. Also, generally speaking, when inspecting a house I’d want to see a dry basement, preferably with original walls exposed and not covered by Sheetrock, and level floors.
catboot | 10 years and 5 months ago
I believe there is a thread about that in the archives. We used Matthew Wynne of Aberdeen Building Consulting. He was super thorough and spent quite a long time talking to us after the inspection and going over everything. We still use us the report as a reference, 3 years later. http://aberdeenbuildingconsulting.com Search the forum and more recommendations should pop up
daveinbedstuy | 10 years and 5 months ago
Richard Parry (sp?) did the inspection for my buyers. He was quite thorough and professional Here’s another recommendation from the archives here… I used richard perri based on some glowing rec’s here and had a very good experience… I had a carbon copy of his notes on the day of inspection and a detailed type-written report within the week following. he’s not cheap, but I thought he was well worth it. 718-828-9116
murbard | 10 years and 5 months ago
Thanks. Any tips on how / where to find a good inspector?