Brownstone Ventilation

We are renovating a 3-family Brownstone in Bed Stuy. Three new independent natural gas boilers will be installed in the cellar to provide heat through the existing registers in each unit. We have to forego, for budgetary reasons, a new HVAC system. However, we are concerned about the need to keep inside air fresh because we will be tightening up the house with new insulation, new windows, and new roof with its own insulation. All three units will have ceiling fans for circulation plus bathroom and kitchen exhaust fans but we haven’t solved the problem of getting fresh air into the units barring opening windows, not the best idea when it’s 10 degrees outside. We were considering the installation of an air exchanger system, yet we have no idea of its cost and appropriateness. So we are wondering what other Brownstone owners have done in a similar circumstance. Realistically, our budget is very humble and we need to come up with a clever, workable solution for this situation. Basically, we think retaining the radiant heat system is the direction we have to pursue but need to address the potential levels of stale and polluted air inside the units. Any thoughts are welcome.

margebuckley

in Brownstoner Renovation 10 years and 6 months ago

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cate | 10 years and 5 months ago

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Stuffy and musty smelling suggests you have water leaks somewhere.

Augustiner | 10 years and 5 months ago

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Even with the best new windows and a tight install you have sufficient air coming in through the walls, unless you spray foam everything or do other measures to make your building sleeve airtight.

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 5 months ago

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I also forgot to comment on articles such as the one posted by cmu. Most “typical” houses in the US are detached with many more windows than city row houses, which as we know have a couple of windows in the front and back and lots of stagnant nothingness in between. Add to that the typical negative pressure situation sucks in (disgusting) air through party walls. Some people do have shafts in the middle of the house, which can be a huge help (some people close them up though). fwiw. And honestly, they are not that hard to install but they prob won’t be cheap as contractors tend to hate small jobs and they don’t love ERV’s because they rarely install them. The typical bs….

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 5 months ago

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Hi Marge, sorry i meant to post an ERV. While none of us probably “need” a balanced solution per se, i purchased it because the air is tempered and i don’t need to run my ac fan in order to get fresh air (i have radiant heat via boilers in basement and ac on roof). I m running the ERV as we speak without the house fan. I’m in the camp that either keep the house leaky as all heck or seal it up and put some fresh air in. Having said that, i have the leaky scenario and still put in an ERV. We lived in it for a few years first, and the stuffy stale stagnant winter air was driving me absoluteley bonkers. Not to mention we can smell what are neighbors are cooking and when they are smoking. Apparently not everyone has the latter issue but for us it was a real problem. Also note that we are also people who do not like to open windows in any season ever if possible for privacy reasons. (I hear enough of other people’s dirty laundry when i walk down the street….). So maybe out needs are different. Anyway our setup is unique as our AC was designed as a single family with one return air on the top floor, and so the ERV is located up there. It pulls the stale air into the ERV and that is used to temper the fresh air coming in from the roof, basically close enough where the fresh air can dump into the A/C return (much like in a car where you can let fresh air in or just run or recirc if you are trying to cool house down fast). In the winter fresh air can fill the top floor, but it isn’t automatically delivered to the rest of the house unless i put the AC fan on (which i do periodically in the winter as it has the hepa – not the ERV – but if i had to do it all over i would get both on a hepa. I can’t stress what a world of difference for me whole house HEPA is and when you add in the ERV it is a real breath of fresh air (no pun intended). Before we had A/C the house had negative pressure and sucked in all the air from outside, and believe me the air is not clean by any sense of the imagination (and we live right next to the park). I stretch to get a month out of the hepa filter as it gets stinky and downright gross any more than that. People have no idea how disgusting their air is. The quality of air is vastly better, but as with anything it is not perfect. It does temper the air, but it still is lower / higher than room temperature so your window A/C and / or heat will have to still work a little bit harder when running. You will probably need up turning it off when it is really cold like it was the past month. As we speak it is 26 degrees outside and the air coming in is around 60 degrees, so while the heat is working harder it is still fresh and comfy on the top floor. Maybe my contractor was right and I didn’t “need” it, but there is no way i could go back to breathing the old air. i think these people don’t know how dirty the air is in the city because it is all they have ever known. Plus we have pets and lots of dander. Perhaps i worked and lived in places where air systems are perfect, but like many things in NYC things people take for granted in the rest of the country are MAJOR luxuries here. Anyway, i am thrilled with the setup but budget was not an issue because we couldn’t live with the old townhouse air. Also, i added it on to a big A/C job and the incremental cost wasn’t marginal since the crew was already here cutting, patching etc.

cmu | 10 years and 5 months ago

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Seriously, Marge, if you think you need an ERV/HRV, get a good consultant, it’s not seat-of-the-pants. And expensive to install as you essentially have to duct each apt (if 1 common E/HRV) or use multiple units (thru-wall). Again. regardless of how well you’ve insulated, I think it’s highly unlikely you’ll need one. Read this if you want to be more confused (but the takeaway is as stated above): http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/hrv-or-erv

margebuckley | 10 years and 5 months ago

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Hi dorkofwindsor, The link you posted above was for an HRV unit not an ERV. From what I understand, they’re two different things. Do you have one unit that serves your whole building or do you have one per floor? We’ve got four floors. Looking Broan’s site, there are ERVs that would seem to serve a building of our size… about 3500 sf. Are we then ducting to each apartment or just to a common area? This looks to be the ERV version of the one you posted, yes? http://www.broan.com/products/product/6ab34952-368d-40a3-8142-21ccbb7ddebd Thanks again for all your help! Much appreciated.

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 6 months ago

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my ERV is stand alone. one vent in, one vent out and they both go through a mini fridge sort of contraption. below 40 degrees they can condensate so there needs to be a line run to drain that (or pump up if necessary). honestly, if you are foam sealing with new windows, i would get them. i got one just because i can tell a huge the difference, and i think that the epa is right that indoor air quality is a huge issue. Those with really leaky houses and no insulation and old windows can get by better, but its never optimal (these stagnant old houses that is).

steam_man | 10 years and 6 months ago

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You want an ERV.

margebuckley | 10 years and 6 months ago

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Thanks everyone for your replies. We’re admittedly novices when it comes to this kind of thing and are basing our fresh air needs mainly on the condition of the house when we bought it… which was stuffy and musty smelling. That said, there were some existing conditions that probably contributed greatly to that. Number one was improper venting and air supply going to and from the existing oil fired boiler. As part of the renovation, these issues will be corrected when the new boilers are installed and connected to the existing steam radiators. So, perhaps we’re worrying too much. We were just concerned about fresh air supply because we’re insulating with expanding closed-cell foam and replacing all the windows with Marvin Integrity units… not Passiv, but far better sealed than what’s in there now. I think Dave’s point is well taken about defeating the purpose of a good insulation job with an air exchanger. From what I’ve been able to research online, those are used with forced air systems, which is not what we’ll have.

dorkofwindsor | 10 years and 6 months ago

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http://www.broan.com/products/product/8e6745a3-e50b-46ee-b8d7-0335d332be1e

cmu | 10 years and 6 months ago

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Yes, unlikely you’ve created a Passiv house on the cheap. If you’re _really_ concerned, get a blower-door test done to see how airtight you are. If you need small amounts of controlled ventilation, look into trickle vents in the windows (basically just a louvered slit that lets in air if needed.) Ceiling fans, btw do nothing afa air quality is concerned; they provide passive cooling in summer & can distribute warm air around a room in winter. Finally, though you claim a humble budget, installing 3 new systems could not be cheap. Assuming you’re renting two, be aware that many renters may be upset to get a $300 bill for heat in Feb (as they’re used to the landlord providing heat.) As a landlord myself, I’d avoid that aggravation.

no-permits | 10 years and 6 months ago

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don’t waste your money. these old houses get plenty of air circulation and you’ll be letting out heat as dave said

slopefarm | 10 years and 6 months ago

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You could run a simple, passive duct from the cellar near the boilers to the outside, preferably the back next to rear wall of the house.

daveinbedstuy | 10 years and 6 months ago

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I’m assuming you mean forced air furnaces. Fresh air induction will be needed in the basement for the furnaces. That said, a typical brownstone basement, if it still has the front coal chute, is drafty enough to supply this. On the return ducts of any forced air system, there will be a filter. There is no need for in unit air exchange which defeats the purpose of a good insulation job. Install CO monitors.