Brownstone Renovations... just getting started
We are in contract on a 2000 sf townhouse (*FAR allows 1300 more sf) and looking for ideas/inspiration. The house in great shape, but we’d want to “spruce up” a bit. Things we may/may not do based on time and price: Expand the kitchen Raise basement ceiling Knock out a couple walls to open up space Demo 2nd kitchen and convert to family room Modern fence in back yard Carpentry work on bannisters/railings Add 2nd bathroom on 2nd floor These are TBD based on cost and recommendations *Central air install (no existing ductwork) *Add 3rd floor as MBR suite *Roof deck With these type of general changes, should we start with architect, or can a good GC handle this. Knowing that there is a wide range, any general time/price guidelines for this level of work? Just getting started, all help appreciated. Thanks! Jason
jasoncahill
in Brownstoner Renovation 10 years and 4 months ago
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20 replies
Lurker | 10 years and 4 months ago
As someone undergoing the “3-4 month renovation” a year and three-quarters later, I implore you to listen to those who say move in, live a little, before you decide on “raising the basement ceiling” (Perhaps you mean digging out the basement floor?). It’s easy for these forums to become pissing on your parade parties, but there’s a lot of hard-earned truth to all the comments above. My added two cents: You hire architects for their creativity, engineers for their critical analysis, and contractors for real world solutions. There’s a lot of crossover, obviously, but architects have a habit of dreaming up wonderful but unrealistic or cost-prohibitive ideas. Engineers tend to devise solutions that will last forever, when something simple, and cheaper, would suffice. And contractors look for every opportunity to cut a corner to save time and money (their’s not yours). Also, you won’t believe how much money and time all the paperwork and planning and permitting will cost for all you listed if you do it by the book. That doesn’t mean not to do them, but I’d double the time for what anyone tries to tell you, no matter what they say. Other wisdom I failed to heed. Fast, cheap, good: at best you can only ever get two. Pick wisely.
no-permits | 10 years and 4 months ago
@brooklynite123, that’s really the plumbers job. if that’s your biggest complaint then curated did okay.
livingthedreamingreenpoint | 10 years and 4 months ago
I remember a former self that would have written this several years ago! We are three years in now. I agree, live in it and see how you feel. That being said, better to discover now any plumbing or electrical issues and have those fixed before you move in. Try to nail down a scope very tightly and find good people to work with. Knocking out walls and raising the ceiling is very expensive and can open a can of structural worms. Fence and carpentry on stairs can be done with minimal expense or effort and without impacting the rest of the project. Remember to put a line item in for therapy. Best of luck to you. It’s worth it.
lamb | 10 years and 4 months ago
given the huge range of options you’re talking about here, I think you should meet with a few architects and GC’s as soon as you can… I agree that living in the space for a while will give you a much better idea what you really want from your home, but you also need to have a good grasp on what any changes will cost before you fall in love with those ideas. start with a few consults with architects, but also talk to GC’s–cost estimates will vary wildly depending on who you talk to. even though it can be overwhelming for a while, you need to gather as much information as possible from the get-go. also, brucef’s point about alt-1 vs alt-2 is very important… brooklyn DOB is more brutally slow than ever these days, and you may opt to drop those changes (like expanded SF) which will force an alt-1 filing once you understand the additional layers of time and complexity involved in just getting an alt-1 approved. good luck!!
camp6ell | 10 years and 4 months ago
No, you don’t NEED an architect to file plans; a licensed engineer can do the same… and indeed, likely is approaching the problem from a different point of view… further, one that might see a higher likelihood of getting approved…
c_w | 10 years and 4 months ago
I don’t know about being disingenuous Brucef, I think you’re reading a little too much into it given the limited context of this particular discussion but I know exactly what you mean. I would phrase it like this: another part of human nature is to believe what is favorable to us rather than a more realistic evaluation that may be less favorable. Sometimes this leads to greater accomplishments, sometimes to hard learned lessons. But are we to avoid any “La-De-Da” because of this? That would be a diminished world. In my judgement, the OP is looking for guidance at such a preliminary stage that it’s most efficient to discuss in person.
brucef | 10 years and 4 months ago
C_W I believe the underlying prejudice at DOB on this issue is against renovation and slanted towards gut/new construction. The OP listed a half dozen triggers for filing, and for Alt-1, not Alt-2. Such As: Knock out a couple walls to open up space Demo 2nd kitchen and convert to family room Add 2nd bathroom on 2nd floor Add 3rd floor as MBR suite Roof deck None of the above architects brought up the considerable obstacles facing this type of Alt-1 will face at DOB. Sprinklers? 18 Month Delay? Structural ironwork? Researchers have determined that human babies are genetically coded to be “cute”, because the necessity for parents to sacrifice to care for them. If they were born like teenagers, no one would have children. Similarly, the above architects rushing forward to assist with the “La-De-Da” design process are somewhat disingenuous. They would kill the job if they informed the prospective client that everything they desire is forbidden and every non-essential drastic expense is mandatory. DOB is the obstinate teenager.
c_w | 10 years and 4 months ago
Brucef, I’m sorry to hear you had such an experience and I don’t know the details but it’s truly the exception if the ultimate rejection is based on design decisions. The simple reason is that any experienced architect knows to avoid presenting such a plan. Even less experienced architects have the benefit of code consultants who will flag any issues that would obviously fail a plan examination. I cannot think of any situation where a design that may not be approved is presented without the client and architect being aware that a prolonged approval process is likely. Aside from all of this, we all endure the same bureaucracy at DOB which all too often does derail project schedules. I would agree that a homeowner, especially one with a construction loan, will be the most hurt party. This is true for delays caused by Landmarks as well. The bureaucracy in itself is completely outside the architect’s realm of control. The many filings you refer to are post approval amendments and can be caused by the following: a mistake in the original filing, additional scope of work added after the original filing, unanticipated change orders during construction, having to clean up previously filed jobs that were never signed-off.
brucef | 10 years and 4 months ago
Case in point. We worked with an architect that I liked a lot. He came up with a plan that worked. Now the DOB would not approve it, even though I still believe they should have… SO who suffers the 15 month delay and the extra filings? You, the owner.
brucef | 10 years and 4 months ago
Sorry, that came out wrong. Architects can be great. What I was trying to say was that no architect can substitute for the hard choices you have to make. They can help, but you ultimately stand before the abyss alone.
brucef | 10 years and 4 months ago
Allow me to summarize the above comments, which are all correct, but just seeing the issues from different perspectives. The designers and architects are not simply trolling for work, they sincerely believe that a significant part of their job is refining and eliciting from the owner what the owner will want. In contrast, the owner/renovators are trying to give you a heads up that only you can prevent forest fires. That forest fire is your savings, going up in smoke. They are pleading with you to live in the space for a year or so, to let the intangibles sink in. I am an experienced builder, and we have just purchased a property with great potential. Yes, dear, another fixer upper. Nevertheless, I cannot for the life of me figure out how to re-design the traffic flow. I am not afraid of radical changes, I have often found over the years that previous owners always shied away from the messy, expensive stuff. But that messy expensive stuff is sometimes what it takes to go from okay to great. So I am reduced to kissing frogs in the hopes that one will turn into a prince. Knowing what is right comes easy to some, but most of us need time to let things sink in. Unless you are that 5% who knows their tastes implicitly, it is far better to accept that you don’t know, and that an architect is not your friend.
architensions | 10 years and 4 months ago
Dear Jason, we are a architecture design studio based in Brooklyn that have recently completed 2 projects with similar scope. We would be more than happy to have a walk-through of the property and talk about your plan. I’m attaching a quick presentation of the latest renovation/addition project. We would also be happy to show it to you in person. Best, Alessandro
slopefarm | 10 years and 4 months ago
I agree with everyone who is recommending starting with an architect, whether you decide to live in the house for a while or want to do the work now. You want to give a GC a clearly-defined scope of work. Nothing wrong with walking through with a GC to get ideas, but you have some very big unresolved decisions — get an architect to work through these issues with you — cost, time, difficulty, benefit, etc. Some architects are all about the finish — that is not what you want. You want someone who is good with spacing, meat and potatoes construction, mechanicals, order of work, etc and will not be deferential to the GC. Most of all, get your arms around your budget and you will want your absolute limit to include a reserve of at least 25-50% more than the amount you commit to spending at the outset (combined for architect, GC, purchases, filings. etc).
carmenf | 10 years and 4 months ago
Start with an architect, imho. They should be able to give you a decent idea of cost. As far as the actual cost goes, your most expensive items are going to be the addition of bathrooms and addition of square footage, assuming you don’t have any structural or major unseen issues (of which there can be many in an old house.) Keep in mind that some of your walls are load-baring and cannot easily be removed without substantial work to the ceilings/floors- it’s not as easy as HGTV makes it look. Also make sure you factor in things like updating the electrical and plumbing, if need be, which can be easily 20k+ each for a house that size just to update, not to redo. We are renovating a smaller house (currently 2000sqft building out to 2600sqft) if you’d like to chat. greenwoodframed at gmail
curated | 10 years and 4 months ago
You need to know what sort of budget you have and then sit down with an architect/designer and come up with a scope of work that can be accomplished within your budget. Feel free to contact us. http://brownstoner.staging.wpengine.com/curated
NeoGrec | 10 years and 4 months ago
I agree too. Though if you do decide to go forward with what sounds like a very extensive reno, I would advise using an architect. A good architect can help plan and stage the project for greater efficiency (and time = money, as we all know). They will also have a vision for how the new elements of your renovated home will all work together on an aesthetic and functional level. In my experience, even a terrific GC will rarely have the same “overview” skills.
theoperadiva | 10 years and 4 months ago
I agree with the above responses. Live in it. Look through Houzz.com, architect websites, renovation blogs (we kept one: www.wandernesting.com and also followed a blog called Brownstone Cyclone when we were renovating), remodelista, gardenweb and apartment therapy to get ideas for and information about what you like and what you don’t like. If you are looking for ideas and inspiration and don’t know whether to go with a contractor or architect, you probably need an architect. A great GC can build your vision but you have to have a vision that is very clearly defined and quite detailed up front. With the kind of work that you are talking about, you are going to need an architect to file plans with the city either way, but how much work that architect does for you is really a matter of how much work you are willing and able to contribute to the process. Know you want a new bathroom but haven’t the faintest idea of what kind of tile you want, where the toilet should go, whether you need a thermostatic shower setup, etc.? It’s time to start getting educated. The kind of work you are describing is really very lengthy and you may just want to go one step at a time. Either way, if your house is liveable you have a rare opportunity to take your time and breathe a little! You’ll be very glad you did. Good luck!
c_w | 10 years and 4 months ago
Jason, Resident2’s advice is sound though I don’t think exclusive to seeking some professional guidance in advance or simultaneously. A part of design is precisely developing form and function based on the client’s life style, taste and the space itself. There is no reason to rush in and there’s no reason not to inquire as time and cost also inform decisions. That information is always good to have sooner than later. I’d be happy to provide more feedback on construction and design to help you explore options. My contact info. is available through my user profile.
catboot | 10 years and 4 months ago
Agree 100% with Resident2: live in the space and see how you feel a year down the road. You will be surprised how much your list will change.