Adding a Level to a Brownstone
Hello All, I am looking to refinance my house to pull money out to add a story and ½ (usable roof deck) to my 2 family 3 story brownstone (Zoning and FAR work for this plan so I?m not concerned with exceeding or needing any type variances). I would like to get a ball park construction/ design estimate for this work so I have a better idea how much I may need to pull from the equity on the house. The house?s foot print is 19?x45? and we are looking to add 3 bedrooms and a bathroom on the new level and a sunroom/trellis structure on the new roof top to double for entertaining and a support structure for solar panels so they are not direct on our roof top. The square footage estimate should not include the solar panels cost. We currently have force air heating on the existing lower levels and will likely add central HVAC to the existing upper level and new story. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated, Thank you.
ACDQT
in Brownstoner Renovation 9 years and 6 months ago
14
Please log in, in order to post replies!
14 replies
dazednconfused2 | 9 years and 2 months ago
Alek – Please elaborate on your $240/sq ft. Are you including finish materials, light fixtures, windows, doors, plumbing fixtures, etc? We use $300 inclusive of all the above items, on a basic, non-high-end level of finish. Keep in mind you’ve got a new roof over the whole thing, and when building on the roof, you’re probably not able to build right on top of the roof joists as they will not be level. In most cases like this, we’re adding all new floor (roof) joists.
ACDQT | 9 years and 2 months ago
Thanks Alek for your input, I was expecting pricing around what you mentioned above. I spoke to a friend who works in commercial construction and he told me $350 to $400 per sqft was what his company normally quotes and they are a billion dollar company with office located in all over the country/ world. He thinks that people hear a potential project in “Brownstone Brooklyn” and see a pig ready for slaughter (no offense to the previous posters). Nonetheless, previous comments made me step back and look at reevaluating what my family really needs in regards of this project which is good, so there is a lot of value in just putting the question out there and seeing what comes back. So in the big picture I appreciate it all the comments received and I hope others will continue to weight in on the question. Also, I have no wish whatsoever to construct an extension to the back of my house, I am lucky enough to have a +/-50 ft deep yard and I love it for my kids. We would only go up. But looking at your project at 147 Stuyvesant (4th floor) may be the solution to the height restriction that Jim Hill brought up in his response so thanks for that.
atkxrplrpfdqj | 9 years and 3 months ago
Hello, Brooklyn in general has zoning R6B in most areas (Red Hook has lower zoning) which allows you to go up in height to 50′ up with required 15′ setback after 40′. Cost of adding a floor at $300+/sqf is simply outrageous. My company does that type of work occasionally and we never exceeded $240/sqf with plumbing and electrical (assuming that side walls will be able to carry new load on the top). If you have to re-inforece side walls that will add another $30/sqf. Also adding extension involves some excavation, foundation work, waterproofing etc and I dont see how that can be cheaper than adding a floor. Also if your house has a setback from the street curb, you might not have enough space in the back to add an extension (Zoning requires backyard to be minimum 30′ deep). Regards, Alek Citi Interiors
snowman2 | 9 years and 5 months ago
A 2 family is unlikely to trigger a property tax increase. It is additions to multiple family that the city goes after big time.
chemosphere | 9 years and 6 months ago
Get one of these: http://www.loftcube.net/
resident2 | 9 years and 6 months ago
And do not forget that if you go ahead with this your Real Estate taxes are going to be increased significantly. Which is why so many people end up selling shortly after they have finished such a project.
curated | 9 years and 6 months ago
Agree with most that Jim said. Going up one story should not be harder than a rear extension. It all depends on site conditions and access but we’ve had extensions that ended up being tougher due to finding solid rock when excavating and dealing with unfriendly neighbors. I’d budget closer to 350-400/sq ft for the new story plus costs to renovate the level below, stairs, roof deck etc. Sprinklers would likely be required but until you get started with a full analysis can’t be certain. 3-4 months for DOB approvals and another 2 months before that designing the project. Figure 6-8 months from the day you start your design/plans to the day you start actual construction. Plan on being out of the house for a year. Construction should take 7-10 months but to be safe plan on a year and you won’t be scrambling for a place to stay. While you can occupy part of the house for a short time while work is going on it would be to your advantage not to. Living through a construction site is not pleasant and it will only slow down the contractors and likely add time and money. Feel free to contact us if you’d like to discuss your project in more detail. www.curatedny.com
chemosphere | 9 years and 6 months ago
Would building an extension instead of adding levels cost less than the $300 per sq/ft ballpark?
dazednconfused2 | 9 years and 6 months ago
Bruce, it sounds to me like you had the wrong engineer. We’ve done this sort of thing with minimal extra measures. Adding onto brick walls, especially if they’re only a couple stories as seems to be the case here, is as easy as sinking re-bars into the masonry to tie them together, and then continuing the masonry, either brick or block depending upon how much is exposed and what you want to see. Then you just pocket new joists or use a ledger or hangers, just as if they were old wood joists. Maybe there were extenuating circumstances? Or maybe the engineer wasn’t used to this scale of construction. Either way, what you experienced is, or at least should be, atypical for this kind of thing. ACDQT, the height limit I’m talking about has nothing to do with zoning, nor does it apply to new construction. The problem is that the MDL was written with tenements in mind and so is out of date with today’s construction. It specifically says in Article 6 Converted Dwellings, Section 171 Alterations: “To increase the height or number of stories of any converted dwelling or to increase the height or number of stories of any building in converting it to a multiple dwelling.” It’s a ridiculous restriction in today’s construction environment, but unfortunately it’s a state law, so one would have to apply for a variance at a state level. The NYC DOB cannot do anything about it. As for the sprinklers, I’m assuming that as a two story brownstone, you’re below 35 feet in height, and adding a story would probably raise it to more than 35′. The FDNY requires adding sprinklers when any building on a street less than 38′ curb to curb and less than 35′ tall is made taller than 35′. Sprinklers would be required throughout the house. Timeline: I would allow 4 months or so in the DOB. I used to say faster when dealing with the hub online, but they’ve really slowed down. Actual construction, assuming things go smoothly, would be a minimum of 8 or 9 months, with the definite possibility of a year or longer. You might be able to live in the house for a significant portion of it, but that always adds time and cost as the contractor has to work around you. And yes, because you would be getting a new C of O, the whole would have to be inspected, so the deck and shed, and everything else on the lower level would need to meet code. The 9′ deck may be allowed to stay, so don’t go tearing it down just yet.
ACDQT | 9 years and 6 months ago
Hi Brucef, Lol, tell me how you really feel, haha! Well, we aren?t interested in build out as it would kill the space we have in our back yard and we like the area for our kids. But idea of building up seems to be much cheaper than moving to a larger place in our neighbor, plus being able to gain a view as you mentioned has also helped motivate the idea this project. However, thanks for the warning.
ACDQT | 9 years and 6 months ago
Thanks C_W & Jim for the responses. No architect on hand yet, but I understand how the FAR is calculated and what is the max limit is for our lot but I will look into the Multiple Dwelling law, I?ve seen new construction being build the block before (on the east) and after( on the west) us and they are 5 or 6 stories so I don?t think I have the height issue your referred to but thanks for bringing it up so I can make sure I get this question answered before I waste a bunch of time and money. Otherwise, Yes, I did figure we would need a structural engineer in addition to an architect to confirm our structure is sufficient to support the addition. Jim is correct that we have brick party walls on both sides as our house located in the middle of the block but, the need for sprinkler is a surprise. I thought you only needed sprinklers for changing the dwelling type (from 2 fam to 3 or 4 fam) of your house, I?m not trying to do any of that. Are the sprinklers needed throughout the house or just the new work? Also Jim, being that you have gone through this before how long did the construction take, I?m guessing we cannot be occupy the house during the bulk this work and want to get an idea of who long we would need to find sublet for? Also, We bought a while ago and there are some questionable elements to the lower level ; an exterior deck (it is a metal deck but I think it is a 9?or 10? in depth and not 8? as I hear is required) as well as has a shed built below it. In doing this project, would the DOB be required to inspect the whole house or will they likely just the new work for their sign off? Thanks again for the replies.
brucef | 9 years and 6 months ago
We have added a story twice, and the process is neither painless nor pleasant. In each case, it was MUCH cheaper to add an equivalent extension, maybe 50% less. Because we were seeking a view, we elected to go up, but every obstacle you can imagine is barely scratching the surface. The structural engineering is probably the 1st obstacle. There is a timidity coupled with a frustrated need to spend someone else’s money on the “elegant” solution that only one who is so under-appreciated and misunderstood could devise. Their insecurity is inextricably linked with a fear of losing their license. Belts and suspenders isn’t nearly enough. Two safety harnesses are better than one. It may be a sign of the times, it’s a wonder that we survived growing up without seatbelts. Abandon logic all ye who enter here.
dazednconfused2 | 9 years and 6 months ago
If it’s a brownstone, then most likely it has masonry side walls, so adding a structure is almost certainly no problem. The real problem is that you may be considered a Multiple Dwelling according to the NY State Multiple Dwelling Law, in which case your height may be strictly limited. In some cases it’s simply not allowed to make a MD taller. In others the maximum height has to do with the width of the street. If you have an architect, ask him/her to look into this before you get any further. If not, call one. As for the cost, we’ve done this kind of work and typically ballpark $300/sq ft for construction cost, which should include a basic level of all finishes, doors, windows, fixtures, etc. You can obviously get much higher. Add to that any costs for renovating the existing top floor to accommodate new stairs, or any other work you’d like to include in the project. Most likely, you’ll also have to add sprinklers, about $10k per floor. And then there’s architectural, engineering, DOB fees, inspection fees, etc, which could easily be $50k or more.
c_w | 9 years and 6 months ago
ACDQT, since you already have your FAR answer I assume you may already have an architect? That’s a good start. Next, I’d get a structural engineer involved to assess if the current foundation & walls can support the added floor. If not, there will be significant structural work to make this all feasible. Once you know the extent of any structural work, your architect should be able to advise whether your overall budget is sufficient or not. However you will not get an accurate estimate until you have detailed drawings for the whole project. I prefer not to suggest sqft. costs here anymore because inevitably it gets taken out of context and misused.