3 family sprinkler system & HVAC Questions
Hello all, We have an offer in on a 3 family that is looking promising, and we hope to have an accepted offer today. We plan on doing a complete rehab on the home and I have a couple of questions on the sprinkler system, as well as a few HVAC questions… Prior to posting this, I did search the brownstoner forum and I did read up on these topics… So the general concenses is to heat all 3 units with hot water, radiator heating? It looks like there is duct work in place within the bricks. I don’t believe anything is hooked up to it. What are my options here? If I am reading past threads correctly, my best bet is to put the AC units on the roof and only run the AC through the duct work? Since this will be a complete gut job, should I install a separate water heater and AC for each of the 3 units you think? Or am I better off having everyone run off of one? I am not handy whatsoever, and will be subcontracting all of this stuff out, so please excuse me, if my terms are not exactly correct. I will do my best to learn along the way, and have some trusted friends helping me with all of this. I am being told the home is 3 family by CO, but there are no sprinklers in the home, BUT it does have a fire escape. I have read in previous post that sometimes you can get away with the latter if you aren’t changing anything with the CO, which we are not… The home will remain a 3 family.. Ideally I would like to get rid of the fire escape because I would like to put larger windows and doors in the back of the home and the fire escape would ruin that. How much would it cost me to put the sprinkler system in, if I decided to go that route? I need to weigh my pros and cons, to see if this would be worth it to me, financially, and the headache involved with it all… Im wondering if I will even have that option or they will make me do it anyway. Thoughts? I have read I would need a new water main? I have no idea, what kind of cost are involved with something like this… I really appreciate your help. I have been lurking this site for quite sometime now, and it has helped me out tremendously, so thank you!
stuyheights
in Brownstoner Renovation 11 years and 3 months ago
9
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9 replies
stuyheights | 11 years and 2 months ago
BruceF- I thought I had sent this last night but it must not have gone through. What do you think the setup that you suggested would cost me? I don’t know the 1st thing about this stuff and have no clue how many BTUs i would even need. The home has a gas setup but nothing else. There is no heat in the house whatsoever. I don’t know if the original owner has any of the radiators either. I asked the realtor to find out. If the house is roughly 700SF per floor, any idea on what size boiler I would need? Material only… What do you think im looking at here? Appreciate all your help
brucef | 11 years and 3 months ago
I am fellow owner, but I work for HVAC contractor in S Jersey that can’t/won’t work in NYC. Condo rentals the tenants are forced to pay for heat, it is considered less desirable (from a tenant point of view).
stuyheights | 11 years and 3 months ago
Thank you all for your replies. Steam_man – Good to know. Thank you. BruceF- Are you in this line of work? I haven’t even thought about that until you mentioned it, but that is a good idea. The general concessions is that most landlords provide heat to their tenants in their brownstones?
brucef | 11 years and 3 months ago
I would recommend hydronic heat with one boiler that you will pay for. Separate the units into separate zones that could allow for future separate boilers should the energy cost/tenant preferences matrix tilt in the future. To be more specific, run home runs to the cellar, and fabricate a manifold that allows separate t-stats for each unit (they control temp, you pay fuel). At the current cheap nat gas pricing, it would take forever to recoup the additional cost of separate boilers/permitting/new gas lines etc. Additionally, there will have to be an implied discount to your rent, as you are nickel and diming your prospective tenants by requiring them to pay for heat. If you have insulated properly and stopped cold air infiltration, it won’t take much to heat a house. Conversely, cooling is energy expensive and personal choice, so a tenant would expect to pay for their electric bill, so no discount necessary. Roof mounted condensers driving mini-splits should be good, just make provisions for gravity drain of condensate while the walls are open. (You may not grasp what I am saying, but when you talk with a contractor who understands, you are on the right track) Hot water is a toss-up. It won’t cost you much to make it with an indirect unit as a zone for your new gas boiler. Maybe plumb the DHW lines for the units home run to the cellar like the hydronic zones. As I have often opined here, you need an expectation adjustment. Most everything you would like to do will be impossible. Requirements that make no sense will consume every bit of your budget. Change to C of O triggers a landslide of mandatory requirements. Do not assume that DOB follows the code. At their whim, after lengthy delays they will require budget busting improvements. DOB is geared to larger projects and new construction. Save yourself heartache and find an expeditor with scads of experience that is absolutely up to date on your exact size of project. Architects, to generalize, know what the code says. That helps to a degree, but only until the “imperial entanglements” at the DOB start making up their own rules.
resident2 | 11 years and 3 months ago
Everything is possible if you have enough money! You definitely need the services of a good Brownstone architect; one that is familiar with “old code” filings, so as not to run into the issue of bringing everything up to todays code, even though you do not want a whole new C of O. The cost of removing a fire escape installing a sprinkler system + filing, permits, the costs of masonry, carpentry plaster paint etc. all in is about $150,000+. You can file to redesign the fire escape, a client of mine recently did it to accommodate additional decks with French doors leading out. The new fire escapes and the French doors, masonry etc. on a 4 sty 20’wide house was $95,000. As for the A/C boilers etc. separate heat & hot water units, I would say is a good investment if you are planning on having a long term rental investment. But central A/C for the tenants I would say is a bit of an over kill.
steam_man | 11 years and 3 months ago
Forget the old ducts. If you have the budget, install a mini-split ductless AC. Separate hot water heaters, mod-con boilers and separate water and gas meters for all three units if you have the budget. If not, I would just go with one boiler for all but separate the hot water heaters and water meters. This sounds like a very pricey job given the fire protection scope.
AnArchitect | 11 years and 3 months ago
A Single means of egress is permitted for R2 occupancy (3 family) if the building is fully sprinklered…so the fire stair can be removed. I’ve seen bids @55-65k for fully sprinklering a building of @4 stories + basement. The abandoned ductwork might be usable as a raceway for refrigerant lines or other wiring/piping, however it’s not advisable for use in distributing conditioned air. Sounds like the type of project we work on frequently: www.agenciegroup.com All best.
metalwork | 11 years and 3 months ago
Yes, you can not just move a fire escape. and this site is very helpful. but you should contact a few professionals in the given fields.
jockdeboeraia | 11 years and 3 months ago
You cannot just remove a fire escape. Pretty much all that you list will need permits. Give an architect or engineer a call. The existing ductwork most likely cannot be reused as it is for a different type of system.