How accurate is the city's data regarding ages of Brooklyn buildings?

Hi all, I don’t know much about this stuff, but I just saw this neat map showing the age of Brooklyn’s buildings from BKLYNR: http://bklynr.com/block-by-block-brooklyns-past-and-present/ It uses city data to plot the date each building was built, but I was wondering how accurate the city data is to begin with. I see a ton of **1931’**s and **1899**’s on there, including on my own block, which is comprised of seemingly _identical_ brownstones for nearly the entire block. Am I crazy in thinking these were all built at the same time instead of haphazardly, as the map suggests? For reference, I’m looking at Vanderbilt between Gates and Greene. I figured you all would know best, and any tips are much appreciated! Thanks, Jen

jenmess

in About Brooklyn 11 years and 10 months ago

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jenmess | 11 years and 10 months ago

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Thanks all, very very helpful!

williamsburgguys | 11 years and 10 months ago

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Same with my block. ACRIS and almost every real estate listing lists our houses as 1920, but the dated addressed postcards and pictures I found in the walls, articles from the old papers, and the absence and sudden appearance of my house and 2 others on the old fire atlases and other maps date these to the 1894-1895 era. It’s almost like someone at the records dept back when they were adding all this info was just sitting there making it up as they went along.

NeoGrec | 11 years and 10 months ago

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There’s also a company in Boston called WardMaps (wardmaps.com) that sells high quality reproductions of old Ward Maps. Go to their site and look for a map that includes your address. The site isn’t super user friendly and they don’t have every page from every atlas available. But first choose which map to look at and then try to find the sub-section that includes your street. They have some good stuff — starting with Beers, Comstock, Cline, 1873; then Bromley & Robinson, 1880; etc etc. BTW, the prints are really nice. We bought one that shows our address in Prospect Heights in 1886 — neighbors love looking at it and most think it’s an original. I’m not shilling for the company, it’s just a good product.

SewardWasRight | 11 years and 10 months ago

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nalusurf – thanks! I am sewardwasright (at) gmail (dot) com!

catboot | 11 years and 10 months ago

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If you have the patience, you can also comb the census and see if you can find your house there. I’ve been slowly building the history our house, back to its first owner. I used a combination of the Sanborn fire maps (from the Brooklyn Historical Society), the census, the Brooklyn Directory (precursor of the phone book, available online via the Brooklyn library), and the Real Estate Record (held by Columbia University and available online) to find out that my house was built in 1894 and sold in March of 1895\. The city says it was 1899\.

mozeeatupu | 11 years and 10 months ago

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It shows my house as 1928 but we have historical drawings that dates it as much older.

Arkady | 11 years and 10 months ago

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Great info, MM! Thanks.

uiyycgzlbp | 11 years and 10 months ago

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Yes, as noted, the Brooklyn Historical Society has a full set of Sanborn Insurance maps. By all means, go there, if your map can’t be found on line. It’s really fun to look at these and trace the development of your neighborhood.

uiyycgzlbp | 11 years and 10 months ago

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While impressive in its scope, and probably as expensive as all get out, that map is highly inaccurate. The data is based on the dates listed in the city records, and they are notoriously off base, some of them by 30 or more years. Many of the city’s records were lost en masse, apparently in 1899 and in 1931, due to two never-happened “fires” that wiped out the records. They basically just filled in those dates on thousands of homes, resulting in 1850s Italianates in Fort Greene being listed as built in 1931\. You don’t need an architectural degree to figure that just can’t be right. Some suggestions: If your building is in a landmarked neighborhood, check the designation report, an accurate date is there. Even if you are outside of a landmarked district, read up, as similar style buildings were probably built in similar years, you’ll at least have a better clue than 1931\. You can find the reports here:http://www.neighborhoodpreservationcenter.org/designation_reports/ You can also look at the Sanborn and other insurance maps, an incomplete collection of which are on the NYPL website. Even if you don’t see your neighborhood listed on their list, look at the indexes. For example, Brooklyn Heights maps are included in their “Downtown” listings. From the map, you can get an inkling if your building was built at the time the map was printed. Yellow buildings are wood framed, pink are masonry. Here’s the link: http://www.nypl.org/collections/nypl-recommendations/guides/fire-topo-property-maps#bk If your neighborhood is not represented, you may be able to find it through other googled Sanborn/tax map sites. You can also try the Real Estate Record and Builder’s Guide, digitized by Columbia University. There are gaps in this too, and research here can be a pain, but if you are determined enough, you may find it. Link is :http://rerecord.cul.columbia.edu/index.php And, you can always go downtown to the public records at the DOB. Always a fun trip. Good luck!

nalusurf | 11 years and 10 months ago

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SWR- My lawyer found them. I will find out where. In the meantime, if you’d like, give me your email and I will send what I have. From seeing your posts, I think we may live near one another.

jkenna | 11 years and 10 months ago

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I live in Carroll Gardens. The City Dept. of Finance lists my home as built in 1920\. My great grandparents lived on the street in 1908, and their home was far from new when they bought it. I have the 1880 Federal census which lists each house, by address, and its inhabitants. I also have an 1880 Ward Map that shows each house as it existed in 1880\. The 1880 map matches perfectly each building currently on the street, including the five wood homes, and all the brick homes. City building records prior to the 1930’s are substantially defective. The Brooklyn Historical Society is the best source for accuracy.

shahnandersen

in About Brooklyn 11 years and 10 months ago

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Our house, built in the 1840s is listed as 1915\. ‘Nuff said.

SewardWasRight | 11 years and 10 months ago

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nalusurf – where do you get the ancient tax maps?

nalusurf | 11 years and 10 months ago

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Yes, as SWR states, City records are pretty inaccurate. Our brownstone, when listed for sale, said it was built in 1901\. After being given a tax map from 1880 our block was completely empty of homes (while neighboring blocks were creeping closer), and then a second tax map from 1899 showed our block fully built with all of the existing homes we see today. Some further research brought me to old archives from the Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn’s New York Times of that era) and I found a “for sale” add for our home and it was mid 1890’s. So, from all of this I am pretty certain it was built sometime in the early to mid 1890’s. fun trying to piece it all together! I think the City just slaps dates on things without much thought or research.

SundialStudios | 11 years and 10 months ago

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The library at the Brooklyn Historical Society has a bounty of information, and is a fascinating place to spend a half day or so researching. I was there most recently in April researching a brownstone we are currently renovating in Clinton Hill. From reviewing the tax maps, which span back to 1860 or so, we were able to locate the original property deed from 1880, and identify the original owner and builder. Pretty cool… http://www.brooklynhistory.org/library/search.html Kyle Page, AIA LEED AP Sundial Studios Architecture & Design, PLLC

Arkady | 11 years and 10 months ago

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The info on the map is way off. Maybe Montrose will chime in w/ detail.

SewardWasRight | 11 years and 10 months ago

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Hi Jen, Not at all, in many cases – esp. houses built before 1900. I say this from personal experience, extrapolation from the numerous references to houses having been built in “1899” on my block, and from what people more experienced in the business have told me. My house was also listed as being built in 1899 – as are a lot of the buildings (if not all) in my stretch of Stuyvesant East. A quick search of old online newspapers, and the Real Estate Record and Builders Guide, showed me that it was constructed from 1891 through 1892. I do not know the reasons (I have heard stories about grand fires in Dept. of Bldg warehouses). SWR P.S. – Great link to the BKLYNR site, bytheway! Thanks!

jenmess | 11 years and 10 months ago

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A friend just parsed the data and it does show a huge bump in buildings listed as built in 1899 and some other interesting patterns; any historians out there know how the city used to count these sorts of things? We found a mention of part of the [building code](http://books.google.com/books?id=gQ09RL0CY8IC&pg=PA465&lpg=PA465&dq=building+code+nyc+1899&source=bl&ots=PaJxF36mRy&sig=6FG77Lw1mZLuJsABOszJzfYU620&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0g_7UYPcBvLE4AOF14D4AQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=building%20code%20nyc%201899&f=false) being instituted then (in 1899), so I’m guessing this has something to do with it? https://gist.github.com/jsoma/6136915 Thanks again!