Confusion over different scopes of renovation
Hi everyone, I know this may sound like an obvious question for all of you who are renovation veterans, but this is all new to me. In looking for a house, I’ve seen ones that are in pretty bad shape (rotting beams, extensive internal damage) and need gut renovations. However, I’ve also seen houses that…
Hi everyone, I know this may sound like an obvious question for all of you who are renovation veterans, but this is all new to me. In looking for a house, I’ve seen ones that are in pretty bad shape (rotting beams, extensive internal damage) and need gut renovations. However, I’ve also seen houses that are in better shape but still need some serious work (new electric and plumbing, new heating, etc…) So, what is the difference between the two types of projects, a gut vs a major overhaul? If the electric, plumbing, etc. need to be updated, isn’t that going to entail major destruction anyway? Thanks for any comments – I appreciate your insight!
re the above comment, it is true that if you tear all the walls off you will likely see more potential structural issues than you would if you did not. However, there will be evidence of many but not all of these issues without gutting. Stairs is a great example. If the stairs are not solid feeling, you probably need to open up the underside and do some repairs. If floors are bouncy, joists may need to be sistered. Cracks in the plaster of a certain kind show larger-scale structural issues. But none of these isolated issues would mean that you need to gut the house. It’s a question of scope and degree–if there are these kinds of things all over the house then yes, there are structural issues throughout and those need to be addressed.
You should also know that just because there’s plaster missing on one or two walls or ceilings does not mean the whole house must be gutted. Individual walls and ceilings can be replace with plaster or drywall.
From my perspective, for most old houses that haven’t been carefully gut renovated recently, there are going to be structural issues inside the floors & walls. These problems may range from old water damage to joists (common under bathrooms & kitchens), to aggressively notched joists or studs (where a plumber or electrician may have in the past cut out a section of a structural element to fit a pipe or wire), to the effects of inevitable uneven sagging of parts of a 100+yo house. Beyond these common problems, if you dig you will likely find other random issues that are consequents of the quirky approach to construction and prior renovations. None of these issues by themselves are likely to be particularly serious (unless the house shows major water damage) because the houses were originally built to last. Together, even in an apparently solid house, they can cause sagging floors, bouncy or sloping stairs, cracking plaster etc etc. If you gut renovate, you can fix the problems. If you don’t (like many people), you will be fine regardless. What you really should try to avoid are the most serious structural issues such as cracks in the exterior walls and/or foundation (unless you are prepared to rebuild from the ground up). Get advice from a structural engineer on any house you might buy.
We started with a house that was reasonably solid & square, fairly level floors & a good staircase. That said, we ended up gutting and solved numerous secondary structural issues (sistering joists, re-building the structural wall supporting the roof which had been removed, reinforcing studs, rebuilding the staircase). The interior detail was preserved and restored at the cost of some of my sanity as well as time & money. Friends bought a place in Harlem that was 4 walls with cellar open to the sky and they rebuilt a new house within the walls to great effect so everything is possible.
As an aside, one other detail that you might consider if you have small kids is that old houses pretty much invariably have lead paint / dust issues. These too can be resolved to a greater or lesser degree depending on your care & budget but shouldn’t be ignored.
A gut means you remove the plaster and leave the walls open to the studs. Usually this is done when people want to remove walls, move walls, and replace floors. Rarely is it necessary. Generally the plaster is replaced with sheetrock, which isn’t as good as plaster since it can mold, isn’t as quiet, and doesn’t look as nice. And you usually lose the historic details such as trim, doors, moldings, and cornices.
If the plaster is cracked or peeling, many times contractors will say it is a “gut job,” and all the plaster needs to come out, or be covered by sheetrock. This is not the case. They can skim coat it if they put fiberglass mesh tape everywhere, and the cracks will not come back. It is usually expensive, however. Though if you are lucky you may find some semi-skilled guys willing to do it for $120 for a short day. If the plaster has come undone from the lathe, that is a whole different problem. You can attatch it with plastic washer screws or get a real plasterer who will do a base coat with structuralite.
If the walls are fine, electricians and plumbers can re-do their systems with minimal disruption to the wall. I wouldn’t live there while they do it, though. Then they will cover it back up, and then you can prime and paint and only then refinish the floors and move in.
I wouldn’t buy a place with serious structural issues, either, but that’s a different issue and not necessarily related to a gut.
the distinction is at times confusing because sometimes it is CHEAPER to demo everything down to the studs in order to replace electrical and plumbing and then build back up with sheetrock, rather than just opening up the walls in the spots needed to access plumbing and electrical (in a run for plumbing from top to bottom of house and small holes in walls in order for electrical to be pulled). what’s left out of the cost comparison is that replacing the walls with sheetrock is going to likely be a lower quality material. Both because plaster is a higher quality material and because original finishes and detail work will not be replaced at all or to the same standards. and a lot of contractors will not be straightforward about what they can and cannot do with moldings etc. for a reasonable price (“oh sure we can find something similar”). If you have plaster medallions, complex moldings, picture rails, chair rails, complex baseboards, and high quality antique window and door framing, you will not end up with comparable quality because of cost and the added difficulty of sourcing like materials and tradespeople.
it is entirely do-able to replace only electrical and plumbing, and to repair the holes in walls and ceilings while retaining the majority of original details. You just have to ask the right questions.
I personally would not take on a renovation with known major structural issues, though of course they can be fixed with enough time, money, and expertise.
Contrary to what’s shown on HGTV, good contractors don’t commit unnecessary mayhem and destruction. There’s a big-to-immense difference between a house with known structural damage and a house needing updated plumbing, electrical, etc. At same time, your budget should prepare for the possibility that repair and renovation might reveal structural problems not caught on inspection.
Yes to both comments above. Plumbing is usually in a single column, with all kitchens and baths aligned (ground floor K & B locations don’t matter much). You open the columns and gut or semi gut only the rooms you need plumbing. Electrical, a good contractor can do a lot with minimal wall openings, but it costs a bit more compared with the electrician’s bill on a gut job with all the walls open, but not by a lot and the whole job is much less. New heating can mean anything from replacing boiler to an entirely different system. That goes to every room and your options vary depending on how much gutting you are doing. If you have a one pipe steam system, there is no need todo anything involving gutting — just have a good plumbing contractor figure out the right radiator sizing for each room and the right boiler size and update the existing system.
Yes, to replace structural items you are going to need to gut in the area of need. Plumbing tends to be stacked on top of each other per floor so that the damage is limited to that area.
Good electricians and plumbers can do a complete house with minimal damage to plaster and crown moldings if that is your biggest fear.