buying a brownstone in harlem
Am new here. My husband and I are in the very early stages of considering buying a brownstone in Harlem. We own an apt now but assume there are a lot of factors involved in the purchase and maintenance of a house that we don’t have to deal with right now. For those of you…
Am new here.
My husband and I are in the very early stages of considering buying a brownstone in Harlem. We own an apt now but assume there are a lot of factors involved in the purchase and maintenance of a house that we don’t have to deal with right now. For those of you with experience – what do we need to know? How much more is insurance on a house than on an apt? Obviously I’m aware of property taxes – but are there other taxes associated with houses that aren’t there for coops? “Hidden” costs I should think about in advance? Any books or other sources you’d suggest we look into? I’d really appreciate any advice you can provide – we’re not in a hurry, I just want to do my best to think about all the possibilities!
Thanks very much in advance.
e.
Thanks so much, again.
I haven’t yet said what condition of building we can afford, b.c I guess that’s sort of what I’m trying to figure out: does it make more financial (and emotional!) sense for us to pay a bit less for a place in need of work – and if so, how much “work” can we afford? – vs. spending a bit more for an already-renovated place that at least in theory should have fewer maintenance/upkeep costs at least for the first 10 or so years, as you’ve noted.
I think we might be leaning towards a fixer-upper since we’re both pretty particular in terms of what we like, and I’d bet we’ll end up renovating whatever we buy regardless of how well it was already done – that’s what we did in our current co-op — it had been totally gut reno’d 2 years before we moved in, and over the course of 2 years after moving in, we’ve more or less overhauled the whole thing again. Granted we didn’t have to do any systems work, but still…
I know the actual maintenance costs on a house would never be as predictable as $16K per year, every year — I guess I’m trying to figure out if that’s something of a reasonable average — knowing one year it might be much less, and another year much more.
But let’s say we’re able to find a place where the purchase price + a solid estimate of the necessary reno work would be within our budget, would $15-20K on top of that, in “reserve,” make sense? And then re-fill that pot if and as we spend it down?
Sorry if I’m totally off base – as I said in the 1st post, we’re not in a hurry, I just want to get as much info ahead of time as possible. Best to be prepared!
Thanks again for your advice, it’s super helpful!!
Annual upkeep of $16-18k is something that will never happen. Problems come when you least expect it. The largest ones would be a new boiler $4,000-6,000 and a new roof $6,000-8,000 and after that you shouldn’t have to do them again for 20 years.
Home “maintenance” is not something you think about with a condominium mentality of paying monthly. If you plan on paying $1,000 a month into a “reserve fund” but you need an $8,000 roof NOW, then you’re in deep doo doo.
You never told us what condition of a building you could afford. that’s the key. if it’s fully renovated, all new systems, you could go 5, 10, 15, 20 years without spending more than $1,000 bucks on something trivial.
dibs – I don’t disagree – but we were talking about 100 year old brownstones here, which generally don’t come in totally well-renovated shape. If they were considered one of the few that was just gut renovated, they probably wouldn’t be posting here.
OP here — This is all super helpful, thank you very much! As you guessed, I was sort of trying to compare our current $1200 monthly maintenance costs (for which we can only deduct a teeny tiny portion of the building mortgage interest) with the actual maintenance costs of a house.
I definitely understand that with more tenants the cost is shared by more people, but then again the building is larger and in theory would cost more, no? Like elevator repairs…we wouldn’t have those in a house. And in addition to monthly maintenance charges, we get pretty big special assessments quite frequently – every time something semi-major happens (like needed pointing, or a new boiler…) So that makes me think – if we have to pay $1200/mo in “regular” maintenance plus an average few thousand dollars on top of that every year to cover larger-scale improvements, would we not be better off investing that maintenance money in our *own* building? But then of course that depends on how much our own building would cost to maintain – which is a huge variable but the info you’ve mentioned above is super helpful. So I guess one of the key Qs would be — what state of repair would our new house need to be in to keep annual upkeep charges in the neighborhood of $16-18K?
My husband and I are pretty good at (and actually enjoy) the relatively minor-scale home repairs — stripping, painting, tiling and the like – but of course need outside help for systems repairs and anything structural. So I’m trying to take that into consideration as well…
And excuse my total ignorance, but water tax? Is this something you pay in addition to the actual water? Yikes…
thanks again!!
“On a house, the upkeep over the years is a bigger expense than the maintenance paid on many large apartments.”
This is where I disagree and I have the experiences to bck it up. IF you are starting out with a fully renovated, systems updated house, this IS NOT the case.
I’ve owned a house on Cape Cod since 1993. Since then I have replaced the boiler ($3,500), had some work done on the septic ($900) and had the trim repainted ($3,500). Amortized over 17 years, those costs add up to $38.72 a month.
I ‘ve owned another house in Bucks County since 2000 and, after the renovation, all I’ve done is yearly boiler maintenance ($225) and some septic tank work ($400).
It’s all about the quality of what you start with or, in the case of a renovation, the quality of work that you do.
But yes, if you buy ahouse that’s livable but thats been neglected it can be a money pit.
Also, flooding or water seepage in basement can cost a lot to fix up and to prevent reoccurence. As can gutter replacement, and fixing cornices falling off. Sidewalk paving. Stoop rebuilding. Fixing up a crumbling brownstone facade is very expensive. Iron railings and fire escapes need to be scraped and painted. Sometimes sagging floors need to be hoisted a bit, and staircases rebuilt. And if you have tenants, they can end up causing expenses one doesn’t think about (repair you don’t anticipate, having a tenant who stops paying rent, eviction costs, time empty between rentals.)
While you can buy a house sometimes for the price of a 3 bedroom coop or condo, the difference in ongoing expense is great when you consider that, in a coop, you have neighbors to share the costs with.
People wrongly focus on paying maintenance. In a brownstone setting, the repairs costs are about the same whether it is a one family or 4 family. The difference is how much of the expense you have to cover.
It all depends on your comfort level – how much money you have and are willing to spend, and what you are willing to live with. We all know people who started a brownstone renovation and ran out of money to continue. Some are fine to take a few decades to get it done, and will live with stuff falling apart until they can afford to fix it. Others aren’t OK with that, and, if realistic about maintenance costs and their income, will buy an apartment even though though could afford the initial purchase a house.
On a house, the upkeep over the years is a bigger expense than the maintenance paid on many large apartments. The difference is that you can apply the portion of the maintenance that would go to pay a coop’s underlying mortgage to repairs in a house. Though there are many who will argue that high maintenance for a large underlying mortgage is factored into the purchase price of a coop (lowering it.) Comparing houses and apartments is difficult, due to the shared repair v. non-shared repair bills. If you are involved in the maintenance of your coop building, you will have a good idea of the costs of various repairs.
Yeah, Soho RE agents really know Harlem!!!! Buy an ad BIG.
It is important to understand that this is surely one of the biggest financial decisions you will ever make in your life. So my suggestion is that you contact a Real Estate Professional with experience in working with Manhattan Properties. My office is in Soho and we do a large volume of business in Manhattan. I would love to help you and walk you through the step by step process of buying.
A lot of what I assume you are talking about are the “maintenance” and “upkeep” costs associated with home ownership. It will all depend on what the condition of the house is when you purchase. If it has all new plumbing, electric, HVAC and a new roof, these cost will be minimal for the nexy 10-20 years. Even then, you may have to replace a hot water heater (about $1,000-1,200) for example. An oil fired boiler requires yearly maintenance of filters, etc ($300-400). A new flat roof will cost you $6,000 -8,000. Make sure that any brick work on the side or rear isn’t in need of repointing. Cheap windows is another real headache. If the windows are not properly installed and not double pain thermal insulated, you’ll get a lot of heat loss. Additionally, you’ll want to get the cockloft (area above top floor ceiling and roof) insulated (about $2,500 with 2 vents).
If you have a deck it’ll need resealing every 2 years or so, as will any ironwork need maintenance. Design your yard for minimal maintenance. There’s nothing worse than having to deal with it on a weekly basis.
Try and see potential houses after a lot of rain just to make sure about any leaks.
My insurance for a three storey/2 family runs about $1,700. My gas bill for heat and hot water runs about $1,900 a year and that seems low compared to what I’ve seen others talk about. Water taxes were about $550.