Electrical in a Pre-War Co-Op
I have an accepted offer on a 100 SF 1 bedroom in a 1937 co-op, and am running into an electrical issue. I hired an inspector to come out and the sponsor/seller would not allow him in any of the mechanical rooms for “insurance reasons”, so he could not verify the total amperage into the…
I have an accepted offer on a 100 SF 1 bedroom in a 1937 co-op, and am running into an electrical issue.
I hired an inspector to come out and the sponsor/seller would not allow him in any of the mechanical rooms for “insurance reasons”, so he could not verify the total amperage into the apartment. There are only fuses, no circuit breaker box. There are 6 fuses, 15 amps each (no circuit breaker) and a dedicated 20 amp for the electric stove. It is critical to me that I be able to replace the current cheap coil stove with an induction cooktop range/oven or an built in induction cooktop and separate wall oven. Specs of the ones I’m looking at say 30-40 amps necessary.
My inspector interviewed the sponsor and they had no idea about the amperage into the apt. So I emailed and asked again. They said they thought 110 amps. My inspector thinks they were mistakenly referring to the voltage.
I’m already pissed off because this could have been taken care of in 5 minutes if they’d let my inspector in to check, but I don’t want to complete walk away from the sale, for lots of other reasons. But how do I get actual proof of the amperage into the apt? In addition, my inspector says if indeed they meant it was 110 volts instead of 110/220v then that’s not as powerful.
What do I need minimum to run the stove/oven I want – voltage and amperage wise? What would the difference be if I went with a combo cooker/stove in one appliance vs a cooktop built into the counter and a separate wall oven – would I just need two dedicated breakers instead of one in the latter case?
Other than those, at most I’d run 2 8000 BTU A/Cs at the same time in different rooms, plus lamps, computer. Nothing else major.
My inspector says he’d be happy with 60 amps into the unit, if not I have to upgrade. I’m ok to do that, but he says I’d need to make sure that there was enough electric coming into the building to even upgrade. How can I get the seller to give me info I can be sure is correct – they don’t seem to know the accurate info now. Should I ask my attorney to add it to the contract that the seller represents there is X voltage, X amperage? Or that there is sufficient electric coming into the building for me to upgrade to 60 or 100 amps?
I want to be able to move on to negotiating a few grand off the price due to some other capital improvements that are needed, so i don’t want to get into a war with the sponsor over the electrical first. I just want to know I have verifiable, correct info.
I welcome your advice!
Update #2 – talked to an electrician today that comes recommended on this site and he says he’s never seen an apt using an electric stove that doesn’t have 220 volts.
Then I took redhookredhead’s advice and checked the offering plan. From the architect’s report in the offering plan dated 1989 (there were no subsequent amendments noting any changes to the electrical system that I could find):
“The building is provided with a total of four main disconnect switches located at the cellar. Three main disconnect switches are fused at 450 amps; one is fused at 100 amps and is designated as the disconnect switch for the public lights. Each apartment is individually metered. The electric meters are designated 120 volt, 3 wire, 60 cycles. Typically, each apartment feeder is protected by four 40 amp single pole circuit breakers (not ganged) located in an overcurrent protective device panel above a meter bank. The apartments are equipped with a fuse panel containing typically, 15 amp, 20 amp, 25 amp, and 30 amp fuses. The number and capacity of each fuse panel varies, depending on the individual unit. Typically, apartments are also equipped with a separate fuse panel, containing two 60 amp fuses (for the electric ranges).”
Does this shed any more light? If the apt really does have a separate fuse panel with two 60 amp fuses for the stove, that seems like more than enough, but I don’t recall seeing any separate fuse panel. I’m trying to go back with an electrician.
I’m a bit confused about who is in control in this building – and that matters to you for your plans. You said the sponsor/seller wouldn’t allow access to the electrical room – but it should be the board that makes that decision – not the seller. If there is a managing agent, they would take direction from the board on such matters.
But often the sponsor controls the board for a long time after coop conversion if they continue to own units. It appears from your later post that 50% of the building is rent stabilized apartments, meaning the sponsor owns them, most likely, and still controls the board. In that case, the board being “chill” may not matter, as they likely are not in control.
I’d generally think twice about buying in a building that is still controlled by the sponsor. Sponsor owners of units caused big problems for buildings after the last real estate downturn (1989-1996) when they stopped paying maintenance on the apartments they owned as they got into financial trouble – that may, or may not, happen again as we work our way out of this crisis over the next decade. Anyway, good luck.
The Attorney General’s Offce of New York State requires all sponsors of units in both condos and coops to have full disclosure of all building mechanicalsin in their offering plans. Each year that they offer anything in that building for sale, they have to ammend the plan with notes of any changes since the previous amendment. Each year’s financials typically have any upgrades noted.
In New York you should have an attoreny represent you. In the other states this is not necessarially needed. Here it is.
The inspector should be able to tell you all you need to know from your breaker box in the unit.
I assume this is a 1000 sq ft unit. I would be war of buying a 100 sq ft unit if one does exist.
Electric stoves come in a variety of voltages, including 120. I sold a 1939 coop, and the buyer could not install anything requiring 220 service. It wasn’t available in the building — regardless of what she planned to do. I think that’s pretty typical in prewar buildings.
Wouldn’t the electric stove be 220 volt???
what eman1234 said. and you haven’t gotten in yet.
I agree with Minard, too, actually – if you don’t like being snowed and not getting information you need from the building, then you will have trouble living in this “cooperative” situation, as it ain’t cooperative, as so many aren’t. Consider yourself lucky to find this stuff out now, rather than after you get into contract. Look for a place where you have some control as an owner.
in that period apartment, there is a good chance that you only have a 40 amp riser, which may or may not be able to upgrade contingent upon the size of the building service…you would be nuts to go through this w/out access to the basement..that is pretty basic stuff, since you will need a new electric riser (possible access and damage to apartments below you for running it),possibly a new meter pan and main breaker in the basement, and god knows what else, if the building has inadequate service and is unwilling to pay the tens of thousands of dollars necessary for a building upgrade
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I am a first time buyer so all this electrical stuff is new to me.
I’m wondering would it even be possible there are not 220 volts, and at least 60 amps — because in the renovated kitchen there is a fridge, a dishwasher, and a cheap coil electric stove – all new. There has got to be enough power to run those three things at minimum. If it had just 110 v and, say, 40 amps, would it even be enough to power all that?
I’m not really worried about the board approving an upgrade if it’s possible – I know some of them and they are a chill, reasonable group. The building is abt 50% owner occupied and the rest of the units are stabilized rental apts, so I doubt if the building does have extra capacity, that it’s maxed out.
Here’s some more info I got from other owners I know in the building. One woman bought an unrenovated resale unit in bad condition which she said had 40 amps coming in and they upgraded to 60 amps, and she said it cost her around $200. When I told my inspector this he said there is NO WAY she could have paid only $200 for such an upgrade. So I don’t know what really happened.
The other woman I know who bough a renovated unit from the sponsor does not know how much amperage is coming to her unit but says she uses a ridiculous amount of electricity and has never blown a fuse – 15,000 BTU AC, guitar amplifers, etc. She says in each electrical outlet, she has one of those power strips with 8 more plugs and has something plugged into most of them. This lead me to believe that the sponsor upgraded the electricity already to her unit during the renovation, which they may have done for mine. However, when I first viewed the apartment, I had asked the broker had they done any electrical upgrades during the renovation and he said no, only the receptacles were replaced.
People make such a fuss about little things. If you like the apartment and can get it at a good price don’t let the electrical service weigh so heavy. Every old apartment in the world has had electrical upgrades, when you buy it, hire an electrician to upgrade the box and give you 220. Don’t piss off the board demanding access to mechanical rooms that shareholders are normally not allowed in. If you have trouble with this you may have trouble living in a “cooperative” situation. Be sure you like the things about the apartment that you will not be able to change such as the location, daylight, size, views.