Kitchen Move: Plumbers, Permits, Pain?
Greetings, I just bought a place on the edge of Park Slope in Brooklyn and want to do some first floor renovations. I’ve searched the forums, but haven’t seen precisely my situation. Basically, what I want to do is move the kitchen from the back of the house to the middle. I’m right by the…
Greetings,
I just bought a place on the edge of Park Slope in Brooklyn and want to do some first floor renovations. I’ve searched the forums, but haven’t seen precisely my situation.
Basically, what I want to do is move the kitchen from the back of the house to the middle. I’m right by the Prospect Expressway and would like the bedrooms to be in the back where it is quiet and have the kitchen to be near and open onto the living room.
As you can see in my beautiful mock-up, I’m on the first floor, so I’m hoping the plumbing won’t be terribly complex to change. I’ll also want a wall removed which I’m almost positive is not load-bearing.
My main question is permits. I saw that folks here recommended one other person who wanted to move his kitchen to another floor to file for permits. Am I in the same boat? I’m short on cash (thank you, Ikea cabinets), but don’t want to have problems when I want to sell this place.
I’m fine with making my own kitchen plan and have a guy I’ve used before to install the cabinets and such, but do I still need a contractor or architect for any other reason? I assume I’ll need a plumber to change the pipes, but really need to keep my costs down if possible.
Lastly, what order should I be doing everything? Knock the middle wall down, remove the old kitchen, install some engineered wood floors, move the plumbing, then build the new kitchen? And any ballpark idea what this should cost?
Thanks for any advice.
An appraiser for a buyer isn’t interested in whether or not there were permits.
I hadn’t noticed the placement of the W/D and toilet below. If you use a 3″ drain, you can be 12′ from the vent stack, using a 4′ you can be 16′. With the standard 2″ you can be 8′ from the vent.
AFAIK, Scott Schnall is basically an expediter with an engineering license that lets him submit drawings and file as the architect of record. Lots of flippers and developers use him, and homeowners, too. It’s a way of getting filed without the expense of an architect who will actually design and oversee the work in any meaningful way. Lots of architects use him as their expediter. THe issue is in using him to file as the architect — with him, it’s just paper.
are you sure you need new stack? toilet and what looks like washer on the basement floor plan probably mean the vent near by.
Ok. Some followup questions:
Will the new vent stack through the roof mean I’ll have to tear up part of the second and third floors? The building is 3 units and 3 stories (plus a cellar).
Is Scott Schnall an architect? I’ve seen his name pop up on this forum a few times (usually with fun disclaimers). Is he more of an expediter than a “real” architect? Also, we are planning to convert one of the second floor windows to a door and put in a stairway down to the yard, so we’ll be needing a permit for that anyway. Can those be grouped together in some way to save me some dough?
I’m not too sure if the appraiser had the plans to the house. They didn’t show up in his appraisal report. I don’t plan on moving for a few years, but also don’t want to be stuck with a big fine at some point.
As for the order of things, I assume we’ll need to keep a lot of the risers that are in the existing kitchen since they feed the two upstairs units. I was worried about the new floors getting damaged but I figured if I’m building a kitchen I would want the floors there to start to build the cabinets on top — at least that’s how I did it at my old place.
Dare I ask how much getting a permit for plumbing/electric (and a stairway from the 2nd floor) is going to end up adding to my costs?
Thanks!
I agree with most everything said above except the “order”, which depends on your circumstances. If you plan to live there through the renovation you may want to do it in two stages. Since your existing kitchen is not in a construction zone (other than demo, skimcoating and painting) you may want to keep using it while you add the new one and demo it once the new one is on-line This will save you big money on dining out not to mention the convenience. You will not really be “moving” plumbing since the riser will stay where it is you’ll be capping old and adding new. Also install new flooring last. It will be less likely to be damaged.
Not sure why unpermitted work will cause problems at sale. Most houses sold in brooklyn have unpermitted work of one form or another, oftentimes extensive.
I’ve watched many houses sell in bed Stuy that have been renovated and virtually none of them have had permits. I know this is true throughout the borough to greater and lesser degrees.
If the configuration doesn’t reflect the C of O, well that’s a different story.
Congrats on your purchase!
According to the DOB website, you DO need permits to move plumbing/electric, but you DO NOT need a permit to remove non-load-bearing walls.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/html/applications_and_permits/plumbing_permit_and_insp.shtml
Some thoughts from a friend of mine that’s done this kind of thing:
Your “order” seems correct. Demo, plumbing, floor/walls repair, install new kitchen – and I’ll add: get a nice set of cast iron cookware and some good gloves.
Whether the wall is plaster or sheetrock, you can dispose of the refuse in strong contractor bags and put a few of them at a time to the curb – being sure to keep the weight low. Too many or too heavy and you will surely invoke the ire (and notice) of the Sanitation Workers.
I’m told that a knowledgeable handyman should be able to move the plumbing. As mentioned above, having access to the cellar makes moving the pipes much easier.
You may need to move some of the electric as well. Kitchens tend to have more power dedicated to them so you may be underpowered if you simply use the existing outlets in the middle of the house.
Doing it without a permit will almost certainly cause you problems when you go to sell (except, are you selling anytime soon? Will the “cure” be easy enough when you have more ready-cash? Did the appraiser in your recent purchase have plans for you property?) and could possibly attract the attention of nosy-neighbors.
Perhaps a simpler solution to the noise of the expressway would be to replace the front windows with better ones?
Yes to the permit. It pains me to say this, because I respect the value real architects add, but I know you are on a budget, so the cheapo way to get this filed is to go see Scott Schnall on Atlantic. Easiest to talk to him (he talks fast like the old fedex guy and has about as much patience) if you go before 7am, and tell him what you want to do. He’ll take care of bare minimum drawings and get it expedited. But then you are really on your own to make sure this is done right.