Design/Build v. Architect
Here is a topic I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on. We are getting ready to renovate a Cobble Hill brownstone that hasn’t been touched in a while. We have interviewed a few architects. Mostly, these architects all say their services will cost 20% of the job. I have also started talking to a few…
Here is a topic I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on. We are getting ready to renovate a Cobble Hill brownstone that hasn’t been touched in a while. We have interviewed a few architects. Mostly, these architects all say their services will cost 20% of the job. I have also started talking to a few design/build firms. For those of you not familiar with this breed, they are a construction company with an in-house designer. The theory is that you will save money on the design aspect by cutting out the 20% architect. Most of the firms seem to have an architect on contract who will stamp the plans. The big disadvantage seems to be that you won’t be able to do a construction bid process…On the other hand, saving that 20% architect (or even 10%, given that you will pay the designer of the firm something) could be pretty damn sweet. My gut is to go with the design/build because I would rather see my money go into the pockets of the laborers who are working their asses off…Would love to hear what people think.
We are just going through a similar process and will be using an architect for some of the reasons noted. Given the amount of money we are spending we want someone who knows the business inside out keeping an eye on things and we’re ok paying a moderate premium for this. When you’re spending 3 or 400 grand 10-12% for us was not a deciding factor.
We’ve never been through a renovation previously and already have hundreds of questions / ideas for the design. In our opinion this is best handled by someone who works in tandem with you and has many years experience dealing with such issues.
Very much a personal choice, but this was ours.
Two of my clients are working with architect/expediters they found on their own. There seems to be a growing trend of clients wanting to cut out the middle-man.
Historically a design builder is not a contractor/architect team but a builder who knows how to design. I read about it in “Fine Homebuilding” at least fourteen years ago and decided it was the smartest approach to contracting I’d come across.
You might want to take a look at hiring an architect/expediter to draw up the 2D schematics necessary for DOB permitting. For full rewiring, plumbing and mechanical as well as interior alterations, the DOB is satisfied with only about 5 pages of schematics. From there you could interview design/builders, who could bid on the schematics and include a design fee in their bid. I usually include about 8 to 40 hours of design at a flat fee of around $400 to $2000 depending on the size of the project. Those are mostly 3D and/or shop drawings (full details).
If you are interested in contacting one of the architect/expediters (neither of whom I have any monetary or contractual relationship with), please email me:
masterbuildernyc@gmail.com
Design/Build v. Architect
As the owner and operator of a design build firm I have spent enormous time and energy thinking about the building process and the inherent problems which seem to be recurring themes when ever I ask my obligatory question; â€have you been through the renovation process and if so what were the negatives of the experienceâ€. I’ve heard all the nightmare stories. I insist on conducting business not by the erroneous industry standards but in a way which has considered the vulnerability of the client and the contractor.
When entering into a design build contract my firm will first present the design development contract which includes a general construction budget, once the design is complete and only then can an accurate construction contract be drafted as a final finish schedule and floor plan are available. Should my client be encouraged to proceed with my firm to complete the construction portion of their project a large percentage of the design development cost will be applied to the construction fee. However my clients are free to take the plan and competitively bid or hire whom ever they choose to complete the renovation. Everybody’s safe everybody’s protected. Honestly how can a number be placed on a construction project which hasn’t been designed yet?
Good luck and to hear more of the unique business practices I employ in order to combat the inherent problems with the process feel free to contact me directly,
Paul Barnla
New York State does not allow Design/Build. Contracts are requried to be separate. New Jersy does allow it. Every state has their own rules that we are required to follow. The general idea is that if the architect is being paid by the contractor than who’s side is he really on? All architects have contractors they like to work with, but the contracts are separtate between the owner and each entity.
jock,
im interested in this issue of illegality. most of the curtain walls in new york city are designed and fabricated by a single entity. The aia advocates two seperate entities and two seperate contracts in the “design/build” process as far as i know. Whats the deal in NY?
– Josh
I have to say, I wouldn’t be without my architect for nuthin’. He has saved me a bundle so far, not to mention bringing his expertise to bear in negotiating the various bids from engineers, contractors, and solar companies. The money I have saved so far on these bids alone has more than covered his fee. I also have the benefit of his company’s advice on selecting tile, cabinets, doors, door knobs, lighting, faucets — you name it. The number of decisions to be made in the course of a substantial renovation is huge, and it helps to have someone who has a pretty good idea of your taste, knows the products, and keeps the budget in mind. My architect will also be there throughout the reno, making sure that things are done right. And his fee is nowhere near 20%. I suggest you interview a few architects first and find one who “gets you,” and take it from there.
Lots of good advice here. One comment about your statement, “I would rather see my money go into the pockets of the laborers who are working their asses off…” It’s an admirable sentiment but the money that would have gone to the Architect isn’t going to land in the laborer’s pockets. It’s going to go to the in-house design team and to cover the added administrative cost of the design-build model. So make sure you are weighing the correct variables.
Pro Design-Build: You can lock into a price much earlier in the process, and it can work favorably relative to schedule – you don’t have to wait for the design to be 100% complete to bid then start construction. Can be cost effective because the process is streamlined.
Con:
1. You don’t have an independent advocate (Architect) overseeing the contractor’s work. How will you guard against the builder cutting corners? I would ask this question to any design/build firm – how do they maintain quality and transparency in their work?
2. You lose the potential cost savings of a bid process.
Good luck!
20% is very high for a substantial typical job so don’t expect you are really going to save that much. An architect is still going to get paid to design and stamp your job. And without competitive bidding how will you know what you save?
But design/build can be a very good and efficient method IF you have an ethical builder. Just remember unless you are very well versed in construction you will be at their mercy and may need someone paid by you to protect your interests
I’m an architect and I operate very closely with one contractor for almost all of my jobs. As Jock mentioned, in NY it’s not legal for an architect and a contractor to “engage in profit sharing” because an architect’s license is regulated by the state dept of education, whereas a contractor’s license is not. The limitation is not specific to architects and contractors, it applies to all licensed professionals and non because non-professionals (contractors) cannot be compensated for offering professional services (architectural services).
With that said, we basically work as a design-build team and advertise ourselves that way. Contracts for our services are typically handled separately but arrived at through collaboration.
As a design-build partnership, we approach every project together – architect, contractor, and project manager. Together, we have enough experience to create a proposal that includes everything from design through construction, all the way to DOB close-out and C of O where necessary. This becomes our working budget, and we stick to it. Unless the owner decides to make changes after the proposal is provided, we finish the job according to the numbers therein.
Our design-build method means that each job gets a project manager who visits the job at the very beginning when we first write the proposal, also works on the development of the design and does all of the construction drawings. When the job goes to construction, the PM is on site almost every day, providing in depth supervision and being the liason between the office, the job site, the GC and the owner.
This approach ensures project continuity throughout the life of the project. It allows us to control costs from the very beginning, even building into the system efficiencies lost in the traditional architect – contractor relationship. The fact that the same person is drawings the details and helping build them in the field means that no information is lost in translation from office to field, eliminating errors and streamlining the construction documentation process. This creates opportunities for savings which we pass directly on to the owner.
The end result is a consistently well designed, well constructed, cost effective project. To compare with previous posts, the architectural fees are generally 8%-12% of the project, depending upon the magnitude of the project as well as the level of detail and customization.
Thank you,
Jim Hill, RA, LEED AP
Urban Pioneering Architecture
(646) 309-7259