Boiler questions
Master Plumber, I need your help. We recently installed a very expensive (and supposedly very efficient) Viessman hot water system boiler in our house. (It is the large one, not the wall one). The problem is that while the lower floors are warm, too warm actually, the upper floors are at least 7 degrees cooler….
Master Plumber, I need your help. We recently installed a very expensive (and supposedly very efficient) Viessman hot water system boiler in our house. (It is the large one, not the wall one). The problem is that while the lower floors are warm, too warm actually, the upper floors are at least 7 degrees cooler. And while it is true that we have skylights on the top floor, they are in the hall, and not the bedrooms, where we have the radiators. Even when we keep the doors closed the rooms are too cold. (there is no heat source in the hall)I have had my plumber (who I do not have total confidence in as he was not familiar with the system) bleed the radiators of air, and that helped a bit. The contractor seems to think this difference in temperature is normal. But is it? I had a Veissman specialist come to check that it was installed correctly, but that was before the weather got cold. An engineer designed the system but I am wondering why there is no heat source in the halls. Should there be? I would appreciate you insights. And, do you work on these type of systems?
Thanks.
without looking at the system, this is at best, an educated guess
they have a heating coil in their hvac system…the engineer had assumed that they would be running the hvac at all times when he made the heat loss / heat gain calculations..he assumed that the air handler was on all the time…that is my guess.. engineers suck most of the time
“it was probably designed to heat with the heating coil on at all times..turning that on should help and actually save you money on the heating bill, since you will not be trying to heat the house with what is essentially half the heating system as per the engineers design”
Please explain this statement, eman1234.
btw..if you want me to do a free consultation, that is a service that i offer…i am a small contractor living in carroll gardens, and preferring to work locally in the surrounding brownstone neighborhoods… you can contact me at errol832000@yahoo.com
it sounds like the engineer designed the the system as a simple front and back zones, which is not the most flexible…it was probably designed to heat with the heating coil on at all times..turning that on should help and actually save you money on the heating bill, since you will not be trying to heat the house with what is essentially half the heating system as per the engineers design…also, adding radiation is going to entail opening walls, etc…so try not to go there.. btw i said choke, not close the valves on the lower floors…think of it like a balloon…you squeeze one place and it inflates in another..again, good luck
Thanks all,
I am having the engineer come and take a look at the system. I agree that we should have placed a radiator in the upstairs hall where there is a large skylight, and especially in the studio room that has no window but also a skylight. The studio is particularly cold. I also have a room on the roof that has two sides of windows, with a spiral staircase going up from the 4th floor hall. It is also freezing. I can understand why these spaces are cold. I think the room on the roof needs two radiators, it has only one. The hall and studio have none. BUt that still doesn’t really explain why the two bedrooms are also so cold. They have the same volume as the other rooms below (a little less actually) and both have two radiators like the other rooms. Each radiator has an on valve that goes from high to low. Is it true what eman1234 says that if I turn off radiators on the lower floor it will push more heat to the upper floors? I didn’t realize that. I know my system has a loop return. It goes up on ones side and down on the other. What might help this situation. Can I add radiators to places where they are missing. (I guess the pipe is missing, too, because it is on the front and back of the house , and not in the middle. I also have a supplemental heat coil in my a/c system, which I can use, but I really think it stinks that I have a “great boiler” and not enough heat. By the way, my heating bill was an astounding $800.00 for the last billing month. Is that high efficiency. The house is large, 5,000 square feet, but I am hoping that if I get this system balanced it will be much less. What else might cause inadequate flow to the system? I really appreciate this help and plan to hire someone else to help me get this done. The plumber who installed it works for my contractors, I cannot recommend him at this time.
it sounds like it is a bad design by the engineer (he didnt provide radiation in the hallway) combined with a plumber who didnt have a clue as how to balance the system…there are so many variables on hydronic heating design (is it pumping by primary pump, primary secondary pumping, are there zone valves, is it zoned by circulator pumps…you get the idea)that you really need a heating specialist to come and hopefully balance the system. for a start , choke the radiator valves on the rooms that are too warm, which will hopefully push more heat to the underheated floors.. good luck
We do work on Veissman boilers and hydronic heating systems of all kinds.
It is encouraging the boiler installation got the seal of approval by the “Veissman specialist” so that leaves your system to blame.
Wiring is critical and as ohiise noted, matching the heat emitters to the energy loss of the individual areas is an absolute necessity to maintain comfort.
I have to believe that if a room isolated from the rest of the system by a closed door is not getting warm enough, there is either a control issue or the radiator in that space is simply undersized.
You’d need to take some temperature readings at the radiators and make sure they are somewhere close (within 18 degrees) to the water temperature just at the boiler’s supply water outlet.
If not, there is inadequate flow to that portion of the system.
There is a lot to troubleshooting this type of problem and it helps to have your engineer verify the system was installed as intended.
Most buildings benefit from radiators placed in common areas (hallways).
Master Plvmber
http://www.GatewayPlumbing.com
We had a similar boiler installed recently as well. The Lochinvar Knight. Like the Viessman it too is a modulating and condensing energystar high efficiency boiler. BTW, National Grid has a $1100 rebate for those if you have the outdoor reset, indirect tank and thermostat. Claim it!
Well, I am no plumber, but it seems to me our system is not balanced. High efficiency boiler or not. There may be too much radiator suface available downstairs and too little upstairs (of course in comparison to the need / heat loss of the different areas). Are these separate zones controlled by separate thermostats? Appears not.
Is this a continuous circulation system? If so all rads will have TRVs on them that allow you to control each rad individually. If not, you could have those installed esp. on the lower rads, so that those would shut off when warm allowing the upper rads to continue heating (provided the thermostat does not shut off prior to that).
A lot also depends on where the thermostat is located too.
Check out http://www.heatinghelp.com
Incidentally, would you mind sharing who did the install.