Crazy talk?
OK, to make a long story short, we found this Victorian two-family on the Bed Stuy-Bushwick border that we LOVE. Has almost every original detail, including the original kitchens, baths, and a speaking tube. Beautiful proportions, light, closets, you name it. (Not as fancy as a Stuyvesant Heights brownstone, but we like it.) But then…
OK, to make a long story short, we found this Victorian two-family on the Bed Stuy-Bushwick border that we LOVE. Has almost every original detail, including the original kitchens, baths, and a speaking tube. Beautiful proportions, light, closets, you name it. (Not as fancy as a Stuyvesant Heights brownstone, but we like it.)
But then we had the inspection and found out it needs $80,000 of repairs. (Plumbing, electrical, structural, plaster. Has unknown amount of termite damage.)
We could only do it with a 301K FHA type loan.
Is this crazy talk? Altogether, it would cost about the same as buying an uglier house that did not need repairs.
(Um, except the mortgage rate would be 6.5 instead of 5 percent…)
Particularly interested to hear from anyone who has rehabbed an old house and Montrose Morris: Do all houses with original kitchens/baths — which we want — need this much work, especially plumbing, or should we keep looking?
When we turned on the water during the inspection, it started to rain. (Three fixtures sprung leaks.)
Are we getting in over our heads?
Nothing is more cranky or anal than a consultant like cmu standing over handymen and expecting them to do the work of craftsmen at half the price while lording his superior knowledge. Preservation, repair and renovation of an old building is a fantastic and satisfying process and endeavor. And one that is full of learning and surprises, even moreso for a first-timer. Take heed of the warnings and cautions—they’re coming from people who are in the midst of the experience (because owning an old house means you’re constantly going to be in the midst of some experience). Nearly all people want to believe that what they see on the surface, or hear about simple easy jobs, will be the nature of their own reno.
Your repairs will teach you otherwise, and you will come out of it an entirely better person for living through and discovering solutions to the ups and downs. Slopefarm provided a wonderful and sane list as a jumping off point, even though he, like most people, reports almost losing his mind in the process.
To get exactly what’s necessary; and required by code, in the electric department you need your architect to draw out a full electric blueprint of every socket, switch, etc and then have that costed out.
Running BX cable is very labor intensive. I assume you need to upgrade the incoming (to 200 Amp) and the boxes to modern curcuit breakers as well.
If you have detailed estimates as you do, they should be reasonably accurate. Electrical seems a little low, but all these 100+k estimates are for anal types who want everything perfect and high-end (maybe you’re one of them, I don’t know, but I’m not.) We spent less than your amt for a lot of detail work on 2 floors, reframing most of our garden rental, 2 kitchens and redo of 1 bath.
Boiler replacement may be high. Try Keyspan if you have oil and see if they give you a break to change to gas, cost us $5,500 6 years ago, including removal of tank.
Ask yourself: can you live with say the electrical for a while? As long as it’s safe, low amperage can be lived with.
You can get a lot of stuff done by handymen types as we did and save a lot of money. Just be sure you know more than they do and be prepared to supervise closely.
Mopar, Slopefarm gave excellent advice, and one thing he said really resonated with me. I haven’t been able to have very much work done here, but I did have my 2 bathrooms roughed out (I’m doing the finishing, the pyramids took less time.) Anyway, I went away for 2 weeks on a job while the bulk of the work was being done. I left the contractor a very detailed list of what original features I wanted either reused or removed to save. For the most part the workmen did that, but the contractor forgot to tell them I wanted a door moved, and that I was reusing the original door. When I came back, the new door entrance was framed in the same place, but for a new door, not the larger antique. I ended up having the old door cut down, and the original entrance ended up working out fine, but that kind of thing wouldn’t have happened if I had been here. Looking at the door now, most people may not see anything wrong with it, but I can tell the proportions are off because of having to cut it down.
All in all, I still say go for it, but do expect your estimations to be low. I’d prioritize with an iron hand, get the rental done first, so you have money coming in, and take your part of the house one step at a time. I can live with my rooms not looking the way I’d like for now, but good plumbing and electrical systems are a must.
I’d be more than happy to come over for cookies. You can have a Brownstoner painting party.
It really is completely crazy to buy an old house. But there is something very valuable about living in a home you “love”. While doing the renovation will take its tolls in more than monetary ways, you’ll have something that completely suits you at the end of it. Only you can decide if you are up to the task and if the rewards are worth it.
PS: $80K for what you describe sounds INSANELY cheap. Are you sure you have a good estimate?
Also wanted to say that there’s some beautiful houses on the Bed-Stuy-Bushwick border. Sounds like you found a good one!
The thing that seems waaay cheap to me is the electrical–we spent at least double that per floor. But what really adds up with electrical is the number of “points’—e.g. lights, plugs, and switches, plus special wiring for AC, appliances, etc.
You should have an electrical plan that shows what you’re getting for that price. It may be only running the new power up to each floor, but not doing a whole lot of add’l wiring.
That said, it’s nice to have as much electrical and plumbing done as you can afford so that you’re not opening up walls later. Also think about cable and speaker wires and hard-wired smoke alarms–it’s much easier and cheaper to do at this stage if you can swing it.
The $7,000 for 14 windows seems quite low. What windows are being spec’d and what are the sizes?? Don’t go with anything other than insulated double pane glass.
P.S. When I said the prices sound pretty good, I did not mean accurate, I meant that they seem quite reasonable. Others are suggesting that they seem low, and they may well be right, even without any surprises. As an example, if all the plumbing is old, not too many licensed plumbers will be willing to sign off on replacing only parts of the supply lines. You may be looking at going top to bottom on the plumbing, which would probably be about a $30k job. When your GC gives you an estimate, makes sure he has gotten estiamtes from an electrician and a plumber for those parts of the job. Otherwise, the allowance the GC gives could be way off.