Crazy talk?
OK, to make a long story short, we found this Victorian two-family on the Bed Stuy-Bushwick border that we LOVE. Has almost every original detail, including the original kitchens, baths, and a speaking tube. Beautiful proportions, light, closets, you name it. (Not as fancy as a Stuyvesant Heights brownstone, but we like it.) But then…
OK, to make a long story short, we found this Victorian two-family on the Bed Stuy-Bushwick border that we LOVE. Has almost every original detail, including the original kitchens, baths, and a speaking tube. Beautiful proportions, light, closets, you name it. (Not as fancy as a Stuyvesant Heights brownstone, but we like it.)
But then we had the inspection and found out it needs $80,000 of repairs. (Plumbing, electrical, structural, plaster. Has unknown amount of termite damage.)
We could only do it with a 301K FHA type loan.
Is this crazy talk? Altogether, it would cost about the same as buying an uglier house that did not need repairs.
(Um, except the mortgage rate would be 6.5 instead of 5 percent…)
Particularly interested to hear from anyone who has rehabbed an old house and Montrose Morris: Do all houses with original kitchens/baths — which we want — need this much work, especially plumbing, or should we keep looking?
When we turned on the water during the inspection, it started to rain. (Three fixtures sprung leaks.)
Are we getting in over our heads?
you are looking at a 2- 300,00 renovation.. do not fool yourself that it will cost less
I say go for it. Were in the finishing stages of a four floor gut reno in Boerum Hill. We had thought it would be a sort of in between reno but partial renovation on an 1860s house that had its last boiler put in in 1924 (really) and a single glass fuse running power to the whole house was just not viable.
We did everything. Electric, Ducting with AC and Heat stripped and repointed the front, totally rebuilt the stoop, Windows Back Stucco Cable Speaker Cable Knocked thru the garden floor, punched out a big kitchen window. Were in spackle city right now.
Financially its a rollercoaster, its still a work in progress and were flat flat broke, and cutting corners on the finishing like billy-o but as were near the final stages and starting to pack at our rental round the corner we are only excited. We learned fast that a lot of pain now means 1) a significantly higher house value and 2) less leaks, bodges and fixing while were living in it.
And when we’re not paying rent and a mortgage we’ll be set!
Your quote does sound very low even if its a partial gut (the things you uncover only add to the cost) But if the price you bought it was below par for the area, you can only win. good luck.
“In our current situation the inspector estimate ~$75-80K of work and I think by the time we are done we’ll have spent $250-300K – granted a good $100-150K of that will not have been, strictly speaking, necessary”
See?!
“I didn’t have a huge amount of money to hire an architect and a project manager, although maybe it would have paid off”
Well only in NY could 220k for a renovation be classified as “not a huge amount of money.” Let me tell you about my case. Granted it was nowhere near a gut reno but I don’t believe in that anyway. We lived on one floor while the bottom 2 floors were finished. I don’t remember excessive dust, computer crashes or my kid going bonkers. The first phase went some over time but not over budget (I won’t say how much since you won’t believe me, it’s low.) 2 kitchens, rental apt framing, fix one bath, paint all.
Two years later we moved stuff out of the middle floor (we have triplex) to redo that bath (fairly comprehensively,) replace all trim and doors and redo floor.
Then the next year we cleared the top floor to do the same thing, including new bamboo floor and laundry room setup. We lived with the combined washer-ventless-dryer until then.
We don’t care if the spindles on the stair are encrusted with paint or there are a few cracks in the wall-ceiling join, or the floors slope a bit. We don’t have the excessive kind of money some do here, and we used handymen to save money. Most of our friends opine the house looks good, but it’ll never be in Arch. Digest (thank goodness.)
So I say again to OP: it sounds like you want a reasonable reno at middling cost, and, believe me, it’s quite possible. unless, of course, you’re picky and high-end oriented. I’ll give you a simple example: dining table ceiling outlet was not centered over table. Did I pay $200 to move it? No, I used a 50c hook where I wanted it, and looped the pendant’s wire over it to the outlet. Would the many perfectionists here be horrified? Probably. Does anyone else notice?
Mopar: This thread is a good example of what it’s like to renovate an old house.
You begin with a certain idea and after the surface gets peeled back you find many things that differ from your expectations and plans that need revising. If you rely on a computer for your home-based business, and you’ve never been in the middle of the repairs you describe, you are likely to find that situation very challenging, even if only in terms of dust and debris. It’s not clear why you think the house is priced at the bottom of this market (or the future market), or whether you need to make the purchase immediately. Your love of the house is a big reason to move ahead. On the flip side, a big area of concern is what you’ve written about your need to live in the house, generate income from both home business and rental, and perform all work on an expedited timeframe and limited budget. Go back and reread Slopefarm’s list. Also, I strongly recommend you contact an NHS office near you and sit down with one of their counselors. They offer wonderful resources and training, and several loan and financial assistance programs: http://www.nhsnyc.org/content/buy/homebuyer_education.html
Or I suppose we could try getting a HELOC, but that seems impossible since I’m sure home values will only go down for the next two years. (Even though this house is already very cheap, already almost as low as could be imagined.)
Oh, by the way, for all that work, I spent 220,000 dollars and I am knowledgeable enough to do all of that work again for less probably and without all the “horror” stories. And maybe Mopar’s place isn’t the Adam’s family type wreck mine was. But an key part of my situation was the fact that I HADN’T had any experience and had to deal with all of this as I went along and I didn’t have a huge amount of money to hire an architect and a project manager, although maybe it would have paid off. I sincerely wish I could have sailed placidly through all of this as some people (cmu, I wish I were you), but alas I couldn’t. Also, I wanted to have a brownstone which was done, or as done as it could be. My neighbors have had a house for 10 years and they have a very laid back approach to doing work, but they still have tools and projects pieces scattered through the house after 10 years. I wanted the tools, the workers, the dust to be finished with. No more ripping walls or big construction projects. (I hope). I wanted to get the work done. It is now done. I think your capacity for living in a ongoing construction site is an issue. Anyway, if it isn’t apparant, I went through a lot with my renovation, but the house is pretty awesome and I am proud of it, so maybe I didn’t express that part very well. Sincerely — I wish you the best of luck and you can check back with the folks on brownstoner because I got a lot of help on this site.
Oh – also, having now bought two homes that needed “some work” the inspectors in both instances were totally off about how much that work would cost.
In our current situation the inspector estimate ~$75-80K of work and I think by the time we are done we’ll have spent $250-300K – granted a good $100-150K of that will not have been, strictly speaking, necessary.
And the first place we bought the inspector estimated $20-30K of work and we have spent at least $50K and not even addressed all the items that were on his “aged and should be replaced” list.
While all this may sound very discouraging, I will say we love our homes and I am totally happy we have chosen to do this — you just need to make certain you can perservere through it.
Is the house livable and/or can you live somewhere else for an indefinite period while it is being done? If yes, I’d say you can perservere through the unknowns, risks, and overruns. If no, I’d say that you might be getting in over your head given what you describe about your work/financial situation.
We are in the wind down (fingers crossed) of the “first phase” of a 3 story townhouse renovation. It’s gone surprisingly well with minimal unexpected structural or other problems for a house that is 115+ years old and was neglected for the last 30. And we feel very good about the honesty and work ethic of our GC and his crew.
But we are 6 months behind our original schedule. When we closed on the house I honestly believed we would be living in it by late Sept/early Oct and now I think it is likely to be late Feb. And this is a job without “surprises”, just permitting delays, time to order materials, etc.
If we couldn’t afford to stay in our rental and carry the mortgage while the work was being done, we’d be in trouble not based on the cost of the work but just on the time estimate you have.
That said, I also think your costs are low. For example, we just paid $9K for 12 standard townhouse sized windows and that doesn’t include the cost of installation. Granted we went with Marvins, but one thing we didn’t even consider is that when you need windows to fit into an existing space chances are your windows will be custom sized unless you want to lose several inches of window (which we didn’t).
I would say that you should replace and upgrade as much of the plumbing and electrical as possible. Things like plaster can wait. If you can increase your electrical capacity now you will be much happier in the future, and it will give you the flexibility go with induction cooktops and perhaps install a w/d in the rental unit. Replace the windows and boiler, too, as the increased efficiency will pay dividends immediately. Structural issues are another matter, and you should tread carefully here.
You could save money by putting off plaster, paint and flooring. I would suggest you save floors for last, anyway, especially if you are considering stripping woodwork.
I’d be worried that you don’t have enough cash in reserve to deal with a major problem, esp. if your’e going to have tenants and work from home. A gas leak, for instance, can cost several thousand dollars to remedy.