Heating sysytem replacement
We currently have an oil-fueled steam heat in our 2-family brick house. We live in lower level (garden + basement) and we rent out upper level. Since we’re not very happy with the steam heat system (expensive fuel, stinky furnace, eneven heat, loud & noizy radiators, etc.) and our floor needs to be re-done, we…
We currently have an oil-fueled steam heat in our 2-family brick house. We live in lower level (garden + basement) and we rent out upper level. Since we’re not very happy with the steam heat system (expensive fuel, stinky furnace, eneven heat, loud & noizy radiators, etc.) and our floor needs to be re-done, we started thinking about radiant heat for both basement & garden level. We’ve been reading about radiant heat at Brownstoner recently, and it sounds much cleaner & cost efficient. But, does it make sense to give upper level a different heating system? Since they have beautiful hard wood floor, we want a system that requires least amount of destruction. We’re thinking that we get radiant heat system with new floor, and give renters a water-heater system. What do you all think? How big of a job is it to remove the current steam heat system? How much would it cost, approximately? Any advice/input is appreciated. Thank you!
Hey OP, 3:22 here.
I went with engineered wood floor and tile. It works great with both, better with the tile but not much.
Be careful about the wood, you want either an engineered product or quartersawn, and narrower is better than wider. Some species are also better than others, there is a lot of this info online.
I like it on the cool side and found that my heat works a little too well for my taste, actually. I wind up keeping my thermostat quite low, around 65 degrees, and I wear no sweater and walk around in bare feet, but am pleasantly cool around my head. I really like the way this feels, it’s my favorite kind of heat.
When my walls were getting taped/plastered, the guys had the heat cranked to 75 for speedy drying, and I found it oppressively hot.
One thing that’s cool about the easyfloor is that it has thermal mass (you wind up with a new subfloor made out of hardibacker). This makes it efficient. But the mass is thin, so unlike a concrete slab you wind up being able to adjust the thermostat.
OP here:
Guest 3:22 – Thanks for the info! What kind of floor material did you put over radiant heat? If I were to do radiant heat floor, I’d like to put wood flooring over it, but would it make the room less warm? How did your radiant heat perform this winter? Did you find it sufficient enough?
If you are interested in radiant heat, we used this system:
http://florheat.com/easyfloor.htm
and I really like it so far. For 3 floors in a narrow brownstone, it cost about $10K plus $1K for a plumber to hook up the manifold, etc.
Pros:
1. Easy to install yourself on top of your existing subfloor
2. Adds a layer of insulation because there’s air space. This helps *considerably* with noise from above.
3. It is efficient. We didn’t even replace our boiler and it’s a lot better than the old hot H2O system.
Cons:
1. You wind up adding 1.5″ to your subfloor, and this means trimming doors, taking off molding, all kinds of stuff. Additionally, your garden level could get a little short if you already have dropped ceilings.
2. It’s scary to have water in your floors. The PEX tubing is lined with aluminum, this is a psychological thing and not a real concern, but I hate to admit that I do spend time worrying about the leak in the floor that will never really happen.
Your obviously superior knowledge on radiators and piping aside, have a sense of humor…the ping comment was facetious…or are you saying water radiators sometimes have been known to puke ;)?
OP here. Thank you all for the comment.
I guess I’d bring in a professional plumber and see if we could convert steam heat radiators into hot water heater.
Regaring the noize I mentioned, it’s not the hissing noize. We do hear some hissing but it’s not bad at all. I’m talking about the loud noize that seems to come from vertical pipes – it sounds like someone is banging on the pipe with a metal hammer. It’s not constant but it does wake me up middle of the night sometimes. I guess that’s what Master Plvmber called “velocity noise”? If that’s caused by improper piping, does it need to be re-piped to fix?
Cmu, with all due respect and not discounting your obvious working knowledge regarding heating systems, you really should be careful when giving advice:
“If there are 2 pipes going to each radiator, yes, you can keep them.”
At least half the radiators I see in the field are for steam only and will not work with hot water.
“The plumbing changes are *usually* small, and you can get a super-efficient 96% hot water ‘boiler’ (misnomer) to reduce your bills. If the plumbing allows it, you can also setup zones to further control your heating.”
It is a complete redesign and most often a big enough job that makes architects, engineers and clients alike consider ripping out all the pipes and starting from scratch.
Plumbers do very few steam-to-hot water conversions.
“And water heat does not ping, pop or puke.”
Always expect some expansion noises. Improper piping and pump selection will create velocity noise.
“Fixing noises should have nothing to do with the boiler, but I may be wrong…seems to be a black art in fixing them!”
Boiler piping, pressure gains, water quality, run time, etc., all play a role in proper system function.
I’ve made it my *thing* to avoid blanket statements anymore. Every job and every application is different.
Thanks for hearing me out.
If there are 2 pipes going to each radiator, yes, you can keep them.(And, I did not think of that, the radiant heat conversion is easier as well) The plumbing changes are *usually* small, and you can get a super-efficient 96% hot water “boiler” (misnomer) to reduce your bills. If the plumbing allows it, you can also setup zones to further control your heating. And water heat does not ping, pop or puke.
If steam radiators are noisy, there’s something wrong, period. At most they should make a pleasant hissing (air escape) noise. Checkout website as above says. Fixing noises should have nothing to do with the boiler, but I may be wrong…seems to be a black art in fixing them! TYpically, it’s the angle of the radiators (should be slight tilt towards pipe (or exit pipe;) the air valves or a gremlins.
10:28: Yes, oddly I like cool floors (like our bath, which also has little heat being on an outer wall far from the radiators.) Once lived in a radiant-heated place (though on West coast) and did not particularly care for it..
MT, you might find http://www.heatinghelp.com very helpful. Check out the articles there on steam heat, etc. Your system may just need a tune-up from somebody who knows steam systems and some TRVs. So before you invest a lot of $ into ripping out and replacing, check out the above website.
Like CMU says, if you have only 1 pipe running to the radiator, then it can be quite a job converting to hotwater (which is also what is required for radiant floors). And when you say ‘water heater’ do you mean a hotwater heating system?
If you really decided to go that route, you might be able to give the renters their own little boiler and a separate boiler for yourself with your radiant floors.
Hi CMU,
Warm floor seems creepy to you? Really? I don’t wear shoes in my house either (I grew up in Japan) but I can’t go barefoot as my tile-covered floor gets too cold to walk on. Anyway, our steam heat is not unrelizble but very loud. I don’t know if it’s just ours, but it makes this loud banging noize whenever it’s working. Are you saying that can be fixed by relacing a boiler??
If existing radiators and pipes (that run throughout 2 stories vertically) can turn into water heater like you’re saying, I would consider keeping them. But can they still be separated into 2 system, one for us and one for renters? It’s been a problem that there’s only 1 thermostat – we need to keep our thermostat at 74F(!) in order to keep upstairs renters warm.
I’m not really familar with steam system, so if you could explain a bit more, I’d really appreciate it.