Brownstone Brooklyn v. Harlem
Aside from geographical location, what do you think are the major differences/similarities between Brooklyn and Harlem brownstones (i.e., quality of housing stock, architectural variety, value and price)? I’m a single, older (almost senior!) man in the market for a brownstone and I was wondering about the main distinguishing features between the two. I thank you…
Aside from geographical location, what do you think are the major differences/similarities between Brooklyn and Harlem brownstones (i.e., quality of housing stock, architectural variety, value and price)? I’m a single, older (almost senior!) man in the market for a brownstone and I was wondering about the main distinguishing features between the two. I thank you in advance for any light you might be able to shed on the matter.
Many of the Harlem Brownstones have been preserved due to being SRO’s. These SRO landlords where too cheap to move walls and remove detail, preferring to paint over everything and preserving the original layout. These SRO landlords unknowingly served as historical preservationists. Many of these old Harlem SRO’s can be relatively easily returned to their original single family home format.
Harlem has no good restaurants nor will they ever with that stupid rule about having a liquor liscense within a certain distance to a church, or whatever the hell it is.
This is like discussing apples and oranges.
Brownstone Brooklyn is bucolic, urban, friendly, all-inclusive and neighborhoody.
Harlem has nice Brownstones (albeit more expensive ones) and is in Manhattan. Little services, high crime and farther to downtown than most of Brownstone Brooklyn.
Go walk around each neighborhood.
Taking the Manhattan vs. Brooklyn thing aside, I think 8 out of 10 people would prefer Ft. Greene or Park Slope.
I am a Harlem brownstone owner, who (obviously) still resorts to the Brownstoner forum for answering my many “how to?” questions. I rarely post, but feel compelled to in this case because the subject hits close to home.
My husband and I love Brooklyn and scoured the borough for a brownstone. Our budget was generous, but even so we found that what fell into our range was not pristine (wanted completely renovated but with original detail lovingly restored — pie in the sky, I know). We found the inventory slim and often disappointing. The few things that fit the bill were in Prospect Lefferts or a bidding war.
When, courtesy of Warren Lewis’ extra special bidding process, I spent a week jacking up my bid on a lovely property by 20k and 30k increments only to have it finally dawn on me I was only getting encouraging calls from the broker to aid in the sellers’ effort to extract ever higher sums from the cash buyer they had already selected, I turned to Harlem.
What I noticed right away is this — the brownstones are far more in tact. They haven’t been cut up in unfortunate ways to accommodate three or four renters, and there is tons of glorious detail to behold. Moreover, we were comforted by the more traditional (by NYC standards) means by which negotiations for property were conducted. I found dealing with “exclusive” brokers like Warren Lewis and Brooklyn Properties was enough to send an otherwise well-balanced person into deep analysis (note to site management: as clear hyperbole, this comment is a non-actionable opinion, so if Warren Lewis or Brooklyn Properties give you a hard time and/or threaten defamation suits, let them know they have no case).
If you are worried about the bottom line, I also agree with the poster that said there is a bigger upside in Harlem. Even the more expensive part is not as well developed and offers fewer services than almost everywhere we looked seriously in Brooklyn, but forces including the Columbia expansion and the multitude of premium condo construction projects (like them or not) will force a certain amount of change. Not that I think the gentrification process will be easy, posts above refer to the very real tension between different socio-economic (and racial) groups, but I think it will happen and pay off for folks who own.
The only question really is what do you want? It turns out I really wanted a super beautiful house that was also a reasonably comfortable bet from an investment standpoint and close to work didn’t hurt. While I paid more than I had ever intended to spend, I monitor the turn over of brownstones in Brooklyn pretty carefully and do not believe I could have purchased anything in the realm of my Harlem brownstone in the places I was focused in Brooklyn — Boerum Hill, Forte Green, Clinton Hill — at the same price point. If my husband were to do it again, I think he would have made a sacrifice on the quality of the house and financial investment to have been able to have the experience of living in brownstone Brooklyn. C’est la vie.
Harlem is still pretty rough. The area of the teens and 20s on the west side feel pretty comfortable, but lots of the neighborhood still has severe proverty/crime issues.
I just moved up to Harlem, bought a brownstone in the west 120s. This after looking quite rigorously in Brooklyn – especially in the Fort Greene neighborhood.
Architecturally the difference, in my experience, is that more of the Harlem homes have original interior layouts (plus original details) – they haven’t been adapted/chopped up to be more than one family residences, so have more of a flow to the layout.
From a lifestyle standpoint, Harlem is not as advanced as Brooklyn. Transport to midtown/downtown is easier, but the everyday quality of life amenities don’t match. You can find good restaurants, grocery stores (eg. Fairway) and wine stores – but they’re often 8 blocks away vs. around the corner.
The crime concern is always a hot topic on blogs. From our personal experience, most of Harlem is utterly fine. There are some blocks there feel wrong and you avoid those! No different to how it was when I lived in Alphabet City in the 90s.
Harlem is block by block, but a few generalizations apply.
Harlem gentrification is traveling from West to East Harlem and South to North Harlem.
There is more upside in Harlem for two main reasons
1) Harlem gentrification is still underway, Brooklyn gentrification is more established.
2) Harlem is in Manhattan, Brooklyn is not
The blog talk of Harlem ‘blood on the streets’ has not happened, just the usual inflammatory blog posts, not representative of the general population.
Harlem brownstones are block by block, the best I have seen being Hamilton Heights.
Harlem Brownstoner
I guess because I have the 1/A/C right outside my door and they run so regularly. When I lived in PS, I spent far too much time on platforms waiting for trains. When they ran well, it was fine. But, often, it was an eternity.
I am not saying Washington Heights is the absolute best place. As I said..all things being equal…
Not sure why you would be less subway dependent in Washington Heights than Park Slope… not that I am a PS fan mind you, just curious about that as your reasoning.
Think 1:46 nailed it pretty good. Harlem does have great houses, but there aren’t many left that haven’t been snatched up or are in some sort of SRO limbo. But if you like/want to be in Manhattan, it’s a plus. it is changing quickly, maybe too quickly for my taste, and in 10 years it’ll be closer in character to Murray Hill than “Iraq,” as one poster said. IMO, I much prefer Brooklyn at this point in time.
Another area you might consider that still has brownstones is Hamilton Heights. The blocks along Riverside between 140th and 160th have some gems.