renovation costs?
Going into contract on a bed-stuy brownstone, and we just had the house (2-family, three story) inspected. The inspector was incredibly exacting. While the house is structurally sound (masonry walls and columns do need to be resurfaced with concrete, forget the term), he was recommending a gut reno. This was a shocker to us. $300,000…
Going into contract on a bed-stuy brownstone, and we just had the house (2-family, three story) inspected. The inspector was incredibly exacting. While the house is structurally sound (masonry walls and columns do need to be resurfaced with concrete, forget the term), he was recommending a gut reno. This was a shocker to us. $300,000 worth of renovation??? Is this an insane estimate? Does anyone have experience with upgrading plumbing + electrical in a 100-yr old home who could comment on the time and expense involved? Also, I have seen extensive posts here on demo+sheetrock vs. patching+skimcoating of damaged/cracked walls. Does it make sense to cut into walls for new plumbing/electric and then fix them up, or is it better to demo them down to their framing, do the work, and then sheetrock over them?
Million other questions, but let’s start here.
I think a gut reno is a last resort for an old house, but I know a lot of people disagree. I think it depends on a lot of variables, the condition of the house, first of all, and your time and money, and whether or not you are planning to do any of the work yourselves. I think it’s a shame to buy an old house, and then rush to gut it, unless it is totally, and I mean totally, trashed. You haven’t said what the conditions of the walls, floors and ceilings are, or how much detail is there, and the condition of that, or what your vision of the finished house is. Do you want a restored 19C home, or a modern open space, where period detail is incidental? I find the world of houses and building trades are divided into old house lovers and old house haters. I find more people in the inspection/building trades are not old house lovers, for obvious reasons – it is much easier, and often cheaper and less time consuming to build from scratch, as opposed to carefully repairing and resoring.
If I were you, I would sit down and list the things that drew you to the house in the first place – the things about the house that you really want to keep. This also includes things like layout, or natural lighting, as well as physical details like period detail. Then list what’s wrong or needs to be repaired/replaced. Are you able to do any DIY? Do you want to? You can perhaps do basic demo, as well as plastering, painting, woods stripping, tiling, putting up light fixtures, etc. That could save you thousands of dollars, and also be a great experience. Are you going to have any rental units? Anyone here with rental units will tell you that those get done first, no matter how or who does it – gotta get that money coming in. Do you move in before reno, or after? Lots of factors in play there. I think you need to ask yourselves a lot of questions before rushing to do anything.
I personally moved into a house that had the 2 rentals renovated by a previous owner who did nothing to the owner’s duplex. I did not have to money to get my plumbing or electric redone in my apartment, nor anything else, and I have been slowly, very slowly doing as much as I can by myself, with friends, room by room, project by project. It is often very frustrating. My bathrooms are functional, but scary, and they have been my main goal, along with the attending plumbing issues, and the electric system is totally antiquated in my apartment as well. I plan to hire someone to do the heavy construction work, along with plumbers and electricians, and I plan to do the finishing work wherever possible. If I had the physical strength, I would do the construction too. I find a lot of pleasure in doing it myself, and love working on my old house.
I would also suggest a great website called Old House Web, which is a great support group for old house lovers, with a lot of good technical information, DIY advice, and moral support of old house lovers from all over the country. There are several threads on your topic, and a lot of good opinions. I know I didn’t answer any questions, specifically, I just hope you consider all the options before someone comes in with a sledgehammer and reciprocal saw.
Remember the good old days when you could TELL the seller to knock off the cost of the repairs from the selling price? Anyway, If you got the cash hire an architect, sit back and start writing the checks. In 6 to 9 months, with the right contractor, you will have a beautiful home. My question to you is why would you buy this particular home after your engineer /inspector recommended a gut renovation? You already sound a little overwhelmed. There are alot of variables, but essentially new plumbing and wiring will mean floors and walls and ceilings will have to be opened up to make the upgrades. There are electricians and plumbers who are experienced with old homes and can do a great deal of work without turning your place into swiss cheese. If the place has no salvageable details and is a mess, a gut renovation may be in the cards for you. No plaster cornices or ceiling medalions? Might be faster to take that old sagging ceiling down and replace it with sheet rock. You most likely will have to gut any bathrooms or kitchens back to the wall studs anyway. Many people on this site have above average DIY skills and know all the stages of renovation work. You need to find a contractor you can trust to ask these questions to while walking through the house.
I know I write this and MANY on this site will disagree, but I believe I represent alot of others so here goes. We’re in bed-stuy and also did it bit by bit with local folks and ourselves – no permits except to do the electical main box. I say go for it! We’ve done two houses this way and they are both in excellent condition now (were TRASHED!) and happily inhabitated by people who care for them. My only recommendation is if at all possible try to do the work while you are living somewhere else. What has taken us two years on our home could have taken two months if we weren’t lving here. really. Do the rental first, get tenants in, and work on yours floors then move in. We even rented out rooms in the construction zone to students (while working on one floor rented rooms on another) to help offset the cost. It is all about the amount of “risk” you are willing to take and the creativity you are willing to put into it. It is easy to find students who will rent rooms on the cheap and are super nice and grateful. Good LUCK!
I did it bit by bit and on the down low with local folks. Three floors, two kitchens, two baths, new wiring, plumbing, windows. 250k.
I don’t know what needs to be done to your house but in general it is the best way to go. My partner went the bit by bit way and they haven’t had a shower in three years (no jokes please). You need to be very, very organized.
Don’t do the skim coat.
If you don’t get a permit they might give you a violation and let you fight it out at ECB court. Get the permit it’s safer that way.
Good luck,
Robert
my girlfriend and I are both architects, and I think we assumed, somewhat naively, that we could get a house in bed stuy and renovate it cheaply, by doing most of the work ourselves. however, structural reinforcing, electrical upgrades, and plumbing upgrades are way beyond anything we can do ourselves, and while we assumed most houses in the area would need this kind of work, we completely underestimated the cost of doing that work.
the house could potentially be beautiful, and it is on a really nice block. it’s really exciting to think this could be ours.
as architects, we don’t make a lot of cash, and this house will be a stretch for us just to buy. initially we were budgeting $50,000 of work on the house, basically just to solidify it and take care of dire necessities. we wanted to work quickly, at least to get the rental in shape on the top floor, so we can start having a little help on the mortgage.
is it necessary to do plumbing and electrical at the outset? can you put it off? is it worth skim-coating the walls if you’re just going to have to open them up in a few years to redo the sysytems?
also, I don’t want to seem sketchy, but is it necessary to file permits, or can you work under the radar?
I appreciate any advice – I really love bed stuy and would love to make this work. I think the reality though is we just don’t have the cash to do the work.
We’re actually in the same boat. My renovations will begin tomorrow on a 4 story brownstone/townhouse. The cost is definitely more than what I anticipated.
As an architect I often get phone calls by new owners with the same question. We generally the cost of a gut renovation at $100,000 per floor. This doesn’t mean that you will pay this amount. I have designed a complete three-story brownstone renovation for $198,000.
My experience renovating my 100-year-old brick townhouse as well as many others is that a gut renovation is the best way to go. It will be faster and the guts of the building will be revealed so you can see if the structure needs repair or replacement. It’s also an opportunity to make the house your own. Being able to put rooms where you want them and in the size that works best for you. Running electrical and especially plumbing around existing conditions is very difficult and the trades will charge extra for the time and to protect the existing conditions.
Your first step is to retain an architect. You will also have to obtain approvals and permits from the Department of Buildings and that requires a licensed architect. I recommend that you use a Brooklyn architect with experience in this brownstone renovation. A local architect can also recommend contractors that have experience this type of work and knows how you can save money on your project. The architect can also be your advocate when dealing with the contractor and his subs.
I know I’ve taken you a bit off point but you should hire a professional for one of the most important things that you will ever do.
If you want to contact me I can be reached 646-257-3920 or 212-791-9807.
You can also stop by my office in Park Slope at 424 7th Avenue. It’s the storefront at the corner of 7th Ave, and 14th St,
Please visit my page by going here http://homepage.mac.com/proffittny/PhotoAlbum1.html
Good luck,
Robert Proffitt
we just finished renovating our 4-story on Macon Street. work started in June and it cost about $225,000 when all was said and done. some seemed more like a “gut” other elemnts seemed cosmetic. but the whole building was rewired nd replumbed. you can email for more specifics…i wish i had someone to refer to when we were starting out. we got lucky and it worked out great anyways. good luck and congrats.