renovation costs?
Going into contract on a bed-stuy brownstone, and we just had the house (2-family, three story) inspected. The inspector was incredibly exacting. While the house is structurally sound (masonry walls and columns do need to be resurfaced with concrete, forget the term), he was recommending a gut reno. This was a shocker to us. $300,000…
Going into contract on a bed-stuy brownstone, and we just had the house (2-family, three story) inspected. The inspector was incredibly exacting. While the house is structurally sound (masonry walls and columns do need to be resurfaced with concrete, forget the term), he was recommending a gut reno. This was a shocker to us. $300,000 worth of renovation??? Is this an insane estimate? Does anyone have experience with upgrading plumbing + electrical in a 100-yr old home who could comment on the time and expense involved? Also, I have seen extensive posts here on demo+sheetrock vs. patching+skimcoating of damaged/cracked walls. Does it make sense to cut into walls for new plumbing/electric and then fix them up, or is it better to demo them down to their framing, do the work, and then sheetrock over them?
Million other questions, but let’s start here.
My wife and I did a near-gut reno on our 4-story Park Slope brownstone about 3 years ago. We are at $500,000 and and still counting, though most of it is now done (just doing some exterior work at this point). I say “near” gut, because we tried to retain as much character and detail as possible. This can actually be HARDER than a full gut reno, because you have to delicately work around many issues instead of just going at it with a sledge-hammer. Also, retaining and restoring details requires craftsmen of a higher skill level. Plus, many of the things you need to do are not standardized, which adds t the costs.
We also did it by the book, proper filings, new C of O, inspections, and all because we converted to a 2-family and the last thing we would need would be for a tenant to hold us hostage for renting an “illegal” apt.
I’ll grant you that some aspects of our reno, especially the kitchen, would be considered “high-end”, but I really don’t think the cost of higher end materials, appliances, and fixtures added more than $50,000 to the reno cost. Also, there is a bitof a Park Slope effect to pricing, i.e. contractors see the address and immediately add 20% to the price (it definately happens), but we shopped around and were aggressive in price negotiations and booted any contractors we suspected of charging this premium.
All-in-all, I still cannot believe how much money it takes. If you truly add it all up, it is a staggering figure. We probably spent twice what we expected, and we are no slouches: Our reno was planned in great detail, we got many quotes, we worked with an established architect, my wife devoted 18 months full-time to the project, etc. and we still suffered massive sticker shock at the end of it all.
Was it worth it? YES, YES, YES! Absolutely! I’m just glad it’s pretty much over (it’s never really over).
I just renovated a 1910 row house. The wood floors had miles of disgusting carpeting on them. When we ripped them up, guess what, the original pine floors were in bad to horrible shape — luckily, the ones in our apartment were refinishable, and actually look really nice, though definitely distressed and rustic. The ones in the rental probably are too far gone and need to be replaced. Putting down new wood or tile or laminate floors is ridiculously expensive compared to refinishing. You always read the stories of the people who rip something ugly up to find something perfectly preserved underneath. But as my contractor pointed out, often if there is carpeting (or paneling, or a dropped ceiling) it is because what’s underneath it is a mess. Beware!
We embarked on a renovation project almost 2 years ago… not quite a gut as we were trying to save details but when we could we would save things to unearth them later. In one of the parlor floors we dropped the 11 foot ceiling down enough to get the plumbing and ventilation required by code and left the original stuff in place. Beware of workmen… we wanted to refinish all the old pine floors… the plumber came in and took his circular saw and ran completely across the building. Soon there should be a listing under the my brownstone section with our woes. Almost 2 years since we started and our 2nd contractor has walked out… this one was a friend of the architect. Choose carefully, pay them as they do the work and not before. Call the Dept of Consumer Affairs to check on their license. I would redo it all… some guys do a great job with snaking around old details. Better to be safe and happy and roll it all into the mortgage… if you go incrementally, it will take you forever… and I agree with an earlier posting… don’t move in until it’s done. But do finish off the rental to get the cash. It’s a mess that you don’t want to live with. It can be cheaper and faster (but more work) if you sub out some of the jobs yourself… find a GC to do the interior and find a plumber and an electrician to do that work… my first contractor had the same guy doing multiple jobs and it took much longer to get anything done.
Good luck.
even if there is only subfloor below the carpeting, a good sanding and a nice finishing touch they should loog great. we took layers of pergo, puple ceramic tile and mastic to get to ours but they look beautiful.
you guys should look into a renovation loan. we did ours through suntrust mortgage and we are now finishing up the final details of our 9 month renovation. call Kathia Francis (631-293-0770) at suntrust. she is very helpful every step of the way. tell her ari sent you. good luck.
I agree with the make your house inhabitable and move in idea. Why under go a total gut right off the bat especially when you can’t afford it? Someone told me when I moved into my old house to live in it for a year before making any renovation decisions and it turned out to be very good advice. I’ve had the chance to feel out the space and now have a more informed sense of what needs to be done. I have also discovered that no matter how good or bad the condition of your house seems there will always be stuff to do/deal with….old houses are old houses are old houses.
Since you both are architects, I think it would be great for you professionally, as well as all the other good reasons, for you to tackle as much as possible yourselves. Nothing teaches like hands on experience. I have an architect friend whose experiences in renovating his home have led to specializing in brownstone renovation, which has proved to be both lucrative and artistically fulfilling.
I lived in Bed Stuy for 17 years, and I love the area, warts and all. I wish you much luck in your renovations. It sounds like you have much treasure there, so enjoy!
I would suggest just painting and doing superficial stuff to make it habitable to move in. Get the rental renovated first so you have some income to help fund the renovation of your living space.
Live in your house for at least year to get a feel for it before you emabark on any major reno. You’ll get a better idea of what you really need and how you inhabit the space.
A gut reno is probably best, but as someone who had to stretch to buy (us too!), that’s not always possible right away. If you can’t afford to gut, it makes sense to take your time.
I have never known a an architect who didn’t take forever to design their own homes. Use the time to consider what lies in your future. like marriage and children. Rip out the carpet….(wow perfectly preserved wood floors), give somethings a quick paint job, and reflect on the fact that you just bought your first home.
great post, thanks for the input. my girlfriend and I are unquestionably old house lovers. the house does have some detail left to it, but a lot of unfortunate “textured” plaster work, cracks, sags, and things of that nature. there is some nasty old faux wood paneling, and we’re scared to find out what’s behind it.
similarly, we don’t know what’s under the total carpet job. nice old fireplaces are still intact, some walls still have some plaster relief detailing, there are ceiling medalions in some ceilings (again, don’t know what is beyond the dropped ceilings).
I love old NY brownstones, and completely fetishize their history and detail. as much as we can save, I would like to. and as much as we can do ourselves, I would also like to. I like hard work, especially on a project like this where it is really ours.
my girlfriend and I are both architects, but with little residential experience. this would be more than getting our feet wet. but we’re extremely excited about it. I am ready for demo, for plastering, painting, sanding floors, (if there are any under the carpet), etc. it’s been kind of heartbreaking to hear that we don’t have the cash needed to take on a job like this.
we don’t have the money it seems now for a total plumbing upgrade and rewiring. trying to figure out if it makes sense to do this and just plan on doing that major work a little further down the road.